file Stealing storage annex

25 Jun 2020 07:49 - 25 Jun 2020 07:50 #100172 by Bloodartist
So recently I've started thinking about various 'location' type cards that might produce rules issues if they are stolen by a card like dominate kine. This is one of the most peculiar cases so far.

Another player has a storage annex and has put a card on it.
If I steal the storage annex with dominate kine, can I swap a card on my hand to the other players card and put their handcard into my hand? The rules technically say I could since storage annex works that way, this just seems way too outlandish to be real. :silly:

Name: Storage Annex
[SW:C/PB, LoB:PG]
Cardtype: Master
Master: location.
Put a card from your hand face down (out of play) on this card when you play it. You may look at the card at any time. During your master phase, you may exchange a card in your hand for the card on this Storage Annex.


Name: Dominate Kine
AKA: Kine Dominance
[Jyhad:R, VTES:R, CE:R/PV, Third:PTr, LotN:PG2, KoT:PV, FB:PV2]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Dominate
[dom] +1 stealth action. (D) Bleed with +1 bleed.
[DOM] (D) Steal a location controlled by another Methuselah.

"If a man wanders into a tiger's domain, it may result in his being devoured.
And so it has."
-- Pisha, VtM:B

Last edit: 25 Jun 2020 07:50 by Bloodartist.
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25 Jun 2020 10:01 #100175 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Stealing storage annex
I do not see why not.
That is how SA works.

Only when you play/discard the other player's card it should go to the other player's discard pile as per golden rule of ownership (unless it needs to be burned).

It is not possible to have a Storage Annex without a card, BTW (hmmm, if the last card a player has in their hand is a Storage Annex I'm guessing that the play would be illegal as you have to put a card on it when you play it. Also, if you are out of cards, the cards on SA are out of your reach).

One of my favourite cards.

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25 Jun 2020 12:22 #100176 by Khaan
Replied by Khaan on topic Stealing storage annex
Would this be similar to playing Agaitas and triggering a "shuffle your hand into your library effect" while you have your preys cards "as in your hand".

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25 Jun 2020 14:38 - 25 Jun 2020 14:40 #100178 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Stealing storage annex
I'll put in on the review list, as there is a general ruling by LSJ that states that:

"the rule is that cards sent to hand (or ash heap or library) are sent to their
owner's hand (or ash heap or library)."

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/vhSqnoAt_Bs/j_X1E8cYWhwJ

I couldn't find any ruling relative to a stolen Storage Annex, but I know stories about Storage Annexes + Malkavian Time Auction so I'll have to make some researches.

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Last edit: 25 Jun 2020 14:40 by Ankha.
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25 Jun 2020 15:19 #100180 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Stealing storage annex

Ankha wrote: "the rule is that cards sent to hand (or ash heap or library) are sent to their
owner's hand (or ash heap or library)."

I think that's a great rule to stick with. It doesn't make sense to allow such interactions.

Might I suggest that we simply avoid this problem with Storage Annex by adding a clause such as: If control of Storage Annex changes, burn any card(s) on it.
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25 Jun 2020 15:31 - 25 Jun 2020 15:40 #100181 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Stealing storage annex
I would think the earlier rulings are based on principle where players without sleeves should maintain ownership of their cards above various other gameplay mechanics and shenigans, or with sleeved the information problem. Consider what happens if Storage annex -> Dominate Kine -> Heart of Nich suffle to deck happens without sleeves without such ruling on return. If sleeves are used, ownership might be easy to maintain, but the information seen via different colored card sleeve travelling in the deck that should not exist? Does the meth need to unsleeve their library and the opponent's card to ensure there is no unfair advantage over other players as two players in the table know where exactly one specific card is on that library? How is ownership maintained if it's unsleeved game or ruled to unsleeve to maintain information secrecy? Is it fine to receive just similar card and what quality it should be? What if there's argument whether or not there was light played or heavy played Dreams of the Sphinx placed and shuffled away from SA? Who determines what was the original card per the ownership rules 1.3 that logically should supersede 1.4?


Imho the current ruling is much more logical when you consider the ownership.
The storage annex is stolen, with the card still face down on it. If the card is changed (via SA cardtext) the face down card returns to the owners hand (who is above their hand size and must discard) while the methuselah controlling SA now is suddenly 1 short of their hand size and draw's back up. Even with Heart or other similar abilities there is no danger of losing track of the card and it's ownership or granting unfair information that should not exist from the gamestate.

kschaefer wrote: Might I suggest that we simply avoid this problem with Storage Annex by adding a clause such as: If control of Storage Annex changes, burn any card(s) on it.


That slighly changes the mechanics as stealing the storage annex and never changing the card in it one can "deny" that card being returned to the owner. Even if it's burned cards like Ashur or similar graveyard digging tools ensure reach to it that would be prevented with the current iteration of the card. Whether or not that's massive change to the interaction or not I cannot say, but it changes how the card can be used in a game. I think we should stick to the original design as much as possible unless it is somehow harmful to the game. I do not think that is the case here.

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Last edit: 25 Jun 2020 15:40 by Kilrauko. Reason: Sneaked in reply to kschaefer to prevent reply spam

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