question-circle Actions targeting locked minion.

15 Jul 2020 21:22 - 15 Jul 2020 21:23 #100357 by Khormag
If you attempt an action that targets a locked minion, lets say something like a superior Fleetness rush, and the targeted vampire uses a reaction effect that unlocks the minion and then attempts to block or is forced to block by the reaction, does the action fizzle immediately, or does it get blocked normally and combat from successful block happens (assuming the action would be successfully blocked).

I have been under the impression that the actions check the legality of the target only if they would be resolving, but it came up in a discussion, that it might not be that simple.

Fleetness:
+1 Stealth action

cel: bleed

CEL: Enter combat with a locked minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional maneuver during that combat.

Prince of Joensuu, Finland
Last edit: 15 Jul 2020 21:23 by Khormag.

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15 Jul 2020 22:05 #100358 by Kilrauko

Khormag wrote: If you attempt an action that targets a locked minion, lets say something like a superior Fleetness rush, and the targeted vampire uses a reaction effect that unlocks the minion and then attempts to block or is forced to block by the reaction, does the action fizzle immediately, or does it get blocked normally and combat from successful block happens (assuming the action would be successfully blocked).


Short: The Action does not fizzle immediately, any and all block attempts are handled before the action with it's cost and effects is declared successful and it's cost and effects happen if still valid.

Khormag wrote: I have been under the impression that the actions check the legality of the target only if they would be resolving, but it came up in a discussion, that it might not be that simple.

Fleetness:
+1 Stealth action

cel: bleed

CEL: Enter combat with a locked minion. This acting vampire gets 1 optional maneuver during that combat.


Long:
http://www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary

How to perform actions, A.1 and D.2 are the steps where validity of the action to resolve is checked.

The Action has to be valid when it's attempt is declared, but as the board state might change before the actual resolution (loss/increase of blood/influence/life, torpored targets, ousted methuselah etc.) a valid declared action can become invalid. The Action however can still be succesful as that's only tied to whether or not it was blocked succesfully, thus enabling playing Freak Drive etc. "on a succesful action modifiers" even on an action that fizzles on it's resolution due to invalid conditions.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/lRZJ-uuX0dU/dU9Eq7GMgcIJ

LSJ 2004 wrote: ...
If the action is not valid when it comes time to resolve it (e.g.,
the cost cannot be paid, the acting minion isn't ready, the target
doesn't exist or is otherwise invalid, or a necessary component of
the action is missing) then the action fizzles. ...


Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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15 Jul 2020 22:11 - 15 Jul 2020 22:15 #100359 by Hakuron
Found this:

>>To play the card, you need a valid target--someone tapped or less than 4
>>blood. Once you play the card (before anyone can play Second Tradition), you
>>have declared a target. It doesn't matter that you play Second Tradtion
>>after the action has already been played.
>
> no, you play the (in this case) untap before the action resolves, which
> leaves it with no legal target, and therefore fizzling. too lay to search up
> relevant links, but i'm pretty sure about it.

Correct.

"Enter combat with a tapped minion" will fizzle if the minion is not
tapped when it comes time to resolve the action.

--
LSJ


groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/lRZJ-uuX0dU


[Edit: Oh, it is the same link. Nevermind.]

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Toreador Prince of Darmstadt, Heart of the Jugendstil
Last edit: 15 Jul 2020 22:15 by Hakuron.

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16 Jul 2020 07:22 - 16 Jul 2020 07:23 #100361 by Bloodartist

Kilrauko wrote: Short: The Action does not fizzle immediately, any and all block attempts are handled before the action with it's cost and effects is declared successful and it's cost and effects happen if still valid.


The thing is: successful block is also one possible way to resolve an action. Its when the "no repeat actions" clause is satisfied.

LSJ post said:
"Enter combat with a tapped minion" will fizzle if the minion is not
tapped when it comes time to resolve the action.


So did LSJ mean "successfully resolve an action" or not?

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 16 Jul 2020 07:23 by Bloodartist. Reason: typos

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16 Jul 2020 13:45 #100363 by kschaefer
As counter-intuitive as it may seem fizzled actions are, by definition, successful.

If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful.[RTR 20011007]

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16 Jul 2020 15:01 - 16 Jul 2020 15:01 #100364 by lip

If you attempt an action that targets a locked minion, lets say something like a superior Fleetness rush, and the targeted vampire uses a reaction effect that unlocks the minion and then attempts to block or is forced to block by the reaction, does the action fizzle immediately, or does it get blocked normally and combat from successful block happens (assuming the action would be successfully blocked).


I'd say the latter (block is attempted and combat happens if successfully blocked), see [LSJ 20090514] (maybe more directly relevant to the question):

Is the block successful, or does the Harass "fizzle" the moment the
prince untaps and ceases to become an eligible target?

The former.

An action won't fizzle for lack of valid targets until it attempts to resolve
successfully (unblocked).

Last edit: 16 Jul 2020 15:01 by lip.

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