Main question
(happened two days ago in a casual game)
:
After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
Were I judging a case like this in a tournament,
I would rule that you can't play Relentless Reaper, because of the existing general ruling (combat section) [RTR 20020501], but that seems to be an incomplete answer.
I will explain what I mean by incomplete in a jiffy:
Here is the general ruling from 2002, combat section:
An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]
Links to
groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com
What about that
(a new) part? Is it reminder text? It it a clarification? Does
causing combat include both Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, which technically extend an already existing combat, but could be said to cause more combat?
If you read the linked email from LSJ, the line preceding the quoted sentence at the ruling is about interrupting scheduled effects, and it gives equivalence to effects that extend combat (ie RR or TT) and those that shedule a new one (psyche, blissful agony, etc):
If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
combat/etc.).
The bolded part of the quoted text is what implies the equivalence.
Given this context, we return to the sentence of the ruling, to the question of why "
(a new)" is in brackets.
If (a new) means a mandatory condition, then it shouldn't be in brackets. We have two interpretations, as the ruling is currently written:
1) If the [RTR 20020501] is meant to cover
only effects that schedule a new combat (Psyche, Blissful Agony, Marie-Pierre, Fast Reaction, etc) and their interactions with each other, removing brackets would remove the confusion.
2) If the [RTR 20020501] covers
all similar effects, including Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, I'd suggest adding an unambiguous addition to the ruling.
Perhaps rewording it into "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." would work?
There is no ruling in
General Rulings or
Card Rulings for Psyche, Blissful Agony, Telepathic Tracking nor Relentless Reaper that clarifies this case.
But, if you're Relentless enough, you can find a forum post by Pascal Bertrand, when Psyche's window of opportunity was changed:
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/16788#16794
This is in 2011, and there are no rulings mentioning this, nor does the post reference any rulings itself
(meaning that according to the tournament rulebook it has no bearing on the rules of the game until it becomes an official ruling - as per 2.1. of Tournament Rules)
:
>what happens if the acting minion plays a Psyche, then the reacting plays Telepathic Tracking?
A new round of combat will happen (TT's "combat does not end"). Psyche!'s "start a new combat after this round" effect is lost (as much as Rotschreck's "send that vampire to torpor after combat has ended" is lost)
Is this 2011 post correct?
That would mean that since Telepathic Tracking can void a scheduled combat by Psyche, it should also be able to void a scheduled combat by Blissful Agony, same with Relentless Reaper.
Since the 2011 post talks about "
as much as Rotschreck's", we can see that the Rötschreck ruling is in the very same email from LSJ - [RTR 20020501] (linked above) . There, it specifically is said:
Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
new combat is started.
How can Psyche be beaten by Telepathic Tracking "
as much as Rotschreck's" when there's no direct equivalence? Psyche is
not an effect that
ends combat and does something else after combat. Psyche resolves as it is played, and a new combat is scheduled (
caused). Why can TT be played? Is it not covered by the original [RTR 20020501], about causing new combats?
If Pascal's post is an active ruling, then general ruling [RTR 20020501] should be updated to not have brackets, as to leave room for Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper (and other future cards with the same effect) to trump over already scheduled combats.
Also, Pascal's ruling of TT trumping Psyche should be included in the general rulings, allowing all combat continuation effects to trump over all new combat scheduling effects. Current rulings on Rötschreck and Psyche do not cover this exact case, unless by huge leaps of logic.
If Pascal's 2011 post is not a ruling, but rather a misleading interpretation, then please consider rewording the general ruling about combat [RTR 20020501] to lose the ambiguity.
I have suggested "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." but I am not a native speaker, and it might be put more eloquently without the ambiguity.
Still, Blissful Agony is an effect that
ends combat and then does something else after combat. Remember that LSJ email? That's the bit that didn't get written into any general rulings, but if it applies, Blissful Agony surely is covered by such a definition.
So... Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Blissful Agony?
Seems like yes, if the whole LSJ email applies in 2018, even while only parts of it are used for rulings. Or no, if the part about scheduled combats applies to RR.
Bonus:
Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.
++++
CARD TEXTS
++++
Blissful AgonyCardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thanatosis/Fortitude
[for] Prevent 1 damage.
[thn] Press.
[THN] Only usable if both combatants are still ready and combat would end. Instead, burn 1 blood to start a new round.
Identical wording as Relentress Reaper, so same ruling would apply.
Telepathic TrackingCardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Auspex
[aus] Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat occurs, this vampire gets 1 optional maneuver that round.
[AUS] Only usable {if} both combatants are still ready and combat would end. {Instead,} start a new round{}.
Mentioned as an effect that shedules a combat
Marie-PierreName:
[LK:2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Samedi
Group: 6
Capacity: 4
Discipline: for nec THN
Independent: Marie-Pierre can lock after a combat involving another Samedi you control to enter combat with the opposing minion. She cannot block older vampires.
Mentioned as an effect that schedules combat
Fast ReactionCardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Auspex
Only usable after a combat between a blocking minion you control other than this vampire and the acting minion.
[aus] Lock this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the acting minion. The first round of this new combat, the acting minion cannot strike.
[AUS] As above, with an optional press.
Mentioned in a relevant ruling:
RötschreckCardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.
A combat card that schedules a combat:
Psyche!Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
