New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

After dipping into history I think I got an understanding.

If we are going to leave SCE as is and still want to streamline the game, than we should stop lying to others and ourselves - most important phases of combat are and always was not defined in the rulebook.

So steps:
> Start of the combat
1. Start of the round
2. Manuver step
3. Grapple step
4. Strike combat ends step
5. Strike step
6. Press step
7. end of the round
> end of the combat

Or even
1 and 2 can be merged just by clarifying "before range is chosen" into meaning the same as "blocks are declined": when both players has passed at this step without playing any cards.

example:
- active player passes
- second player plays Torn Signpost, passes
- active player plays Crows
- active player plays AfB, passes
- second player got no manuevers, passes, he is sad
- active player wants to play Drawing out the Beast, but range already determined, so he can't.
- second player little less sad

6 and 7 can also be merged - you have to play Taste before second player passes.

So shorter version:

> Start of the combat
1. Manuver step
2. Grapple step
3. Strike combat ends step
4. Strike step
5. Press step
> end of the combat

Names are intuitive and I think there will be very little to explain for a new player regardless of when which card should be played as well as what to expect from VtES combat ("yes, in this game combat can suddenly end at the middle of the round"). Formal rewording is needed for 4 grapple cards, removing "strike" from SCE cards and it's all check setting range cards - they will now end the step disallowing defender to play cards.

New opportunity to design more grapple cards or to play with "step 3" somehow for those who is interested in it.

New opportunity to design more grapple cards or to play with "step 3" somehow for those who is interested in it.

While this is a cool design space that should get more help (maybe vampires that play grapples better), it's really more along the lines of option A.

In option B there is really no reason to merge phases and then invent a new one, when all grapples can easily be specified in card text when they're played. Immortal Grapple is the only grapple anyways where the timing is wonky.

It was already suggested that IG would read "If the range is close--" etc. It nerfs it a bit, but that's trivial.

As was stated, worrying about single cards like IG, is moot in this discussion. As should the power level of S:CE be as well.

Anyways, if your idea is that S:CE is too strong and it should be trumped with Grapples, cards like Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking, Death Seeker and the new card are better in killing Majesty decks. All IG is better at than those is that it enables Disarm. Which can be done on as well, so...

Grapple isn't necessary to battle S:CE. A new step in the combat outline should not be added on a basis of any card's power level anyways.

In option A I could imagine a Grapple step being fine, and should probably be suggested in that thread. All grapples should then be errated to be played in that step for it to serve a purpose. And then there could be more grapple cards designed, and grapple support cards and vampires.

I'm not a fan of introducing a new step in combat just because of one card. There must be a way to errata IG in some way that works with whatever combat structure we choose.

Bloodartist wrote:

I'm not a fan of introducing a new step in combat just because of one card. There must be a way to errata IG in some way that works with whatever combat structure we choose.

What's unique about Immortal Grapple's timing?

There are other cards played after range is determined, but before strikes are chosen, including

Thin Blood
Blood of Acid
Superior King of the Mountain
inf Blissful Agony

Bloodartist wrote:

I'm not a fan of introducing a new step in combat just because of one card. There must be a way to errata IG in some way that works with whatever combat structure we choose.

We are not introducing new step, it was there all along from the beginning. We just fixing it in the rules.

Situation, that whole combat of VtES are greatly influenced by one card is stupid, I've written a lot about it. But if we want to IG remain working as is, which we should do until SCE remains as is, than we have no other way -> range should be determined, than players should ask if anybody is playing IG.

drnlmza wrote:

Thin Blood
Blood of Acid
Superior King of the Mountain
inf Blissful Agony

O, thanks! Grapple step became much less empty!