Graverobbing and Carver's Meat Packing and Storage

Which was in my first post

Id say no. Because Banishment says younger and ready vampire. Which your vampire obviously isnt anymore as he/she is in torpor.

Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).

echiang wrote:

Can an uncontrolled hostage enter the ready region?

Yes. [LSJ 20050224]

LSJ wrote:

> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
> the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?

The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
region at that time.

Banishment is not an option, by card text ("ready").
Peace of K. will work, though.

Ankha wrote:

(Because of the analogy with the Anarch Convert special text that can be used as he would come into play, before he really enters play and becomes contested).

This is maybe not the designer intent, except that nothing prohibits the hostage counter from working when the vampire would come back into play.

Most things don't take effect until a card is actually in play. The "is played" or "enters play" happens earlier than that. So, for example, the effect of an Elder Library does not take effect until it's firmly in play (played, not Suddened, not being played to contest a card), but the effect of Anarch Convert happens when the card is played due to its "enters play" card text.

[LSJ 20080526]

Non-existant user wrote:

> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
> suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
>
> In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> unique card too.

You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
applied.

So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.

Carver's appears to be in the Elder Library camp.


(The issue with Elder Library is - if I played it to contest yours - would I get an extra hand-size, draw a card, then have it contest, then lose the hand size, thus getting to cycle an extra card. The answer is no.)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

echiang wrote:

Can an uncontrolled hostage enter the ready region?

Yes. [LSJ 20050224]

LSJ wrote:

> Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
> the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?

The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
region at that time.

Banishment is not an option, by card text ("ready").
Peace of K. will work, though.

Ankha wrote:

(Because of the analogy with the Anarch Convert special text that can be used as he would come into play, before he really enters play and becomes contested).

This is maybe not the designer intent, except that nothing prohibits the hostage counter from working when the vampire would come back into play.

Most things don't take effect until a card is actually in play. The "is played" or "enters play" happens earlier than that. So, for example, the effect of an Elder Library does not take effect until it's firmly in play (played, not Suddened, not being played to contest a card), but the effect of Anarch Convert happens when the card is played due to its "enters play" card text.

[LSJ 20080526]

Non-existant user wrote:

> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
> suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
>
> In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> unique card too.

You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
applied.

So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.

Carver's appears to be in the Elder Library camp.


(The issue with Elder Library is - if I played it to contest yours - would I get an extra hand-size, draw a card, then have it contest, then lose the hand size, thus getting to cycle an extra card. The answer is no.)

Correct.