Anarch-ing Parmenides

I'm confused - is there any scenario where Parmenide's control is any different than:
A. Like Spirit Marionette in reverse, so yes - temporary controller can use Heidelberg Castle.
B. Longer than A so there's even more time to use it.

If your question is about using it yourself, thus during the resolution of an action, I would say you can't.

Good one Eliseu.
You're getting people confused. In a good way, I guess.

Tiago

The same question can also arise with Rabbat, and in that case the situation is a bit simpler since only one player is involved.

Here's the only reference I could find:

[LSJ 20040518] wrote:

> #8. A. If Chain of Command is played to bring out a single vampire (with 1
> blood) and you then Heidelburg the blood off, the Chained vampire is stuck,
> right? (must hunt and must bleed so can't do anything). Assuming that he
> remains in this state, does he stay in play indefinitely then?

No. Chain of Command's card text handles this: "when all that can bleed
have".

> B. Similarly, if you Chain of Command 4 Aabt Kindred's into play and you never
> bring out Nefertiti, these little critters stay around, correct? (Though they
> can't take any actions, even undirected, now).

No, as above.

My answer here is: Since we have that "Freak Drive" window, let's use it.
In that window, Rabbat (or a Pentex'd guy) would be moved back to your crypt.
Aabbt Kindred (provided you have no Nefertiti) are moved back to your crypt.
Parmenides would be moved back to your crypt, if his controller can't have him act.

This means Heidelberg is not usable to move the blood from Parmenides / Rabbat to a minion you control.

Pascal wrote:

Here's the only reference I could find:

[LSJ 20040518] wrote:

> #8. A. If Chain of Command is played to bring out a single vampire (with 1
> blood) and you then Heidelburg the blood off, the Chained vampire is stuck,
> right? (must hunt and must bleed so can't do anything). Assuming that he
> remains in this state, does he stay in play indefinitely then?

No. Chain of Command's card text handles this: "when all that can bleed
have".

> B. Similarly, if you Chain of Command 4 Aabt Kindred's into play and you never
> bring out Nefertiti, these little critters stay around, correct? (Though they
> can't take any actions, even undirected, now).

No, as above.

My answer here is: Since we have that "Freak Drive" window, let's use it.
In that window, Rabbat (or a Pentex'd guy) would be moved back to your crypt.
Aabbt Kindred (provided you have no Nefertiti) are moved back to your crypt.
Parmenides would be moved back to your crypt, if his controller can't have him act.

This means Heidelberg is not usable to move the blood from Parmenides / Rabbat to a minion you control.

I thought the mechanism was the same as Spirit Marionette:
A. get a vampire into a ready region, that must bleed right away.
B. window to use Heidelberg.
C. checks are made to see if said vampire actually can bleed (where he is, if it has any blood and therefore must hunt, etc.)
D. vampire acts (or not)
E. checks are made to see where the vampire goes next, according to D. (in case of SP, a minion with Pentex stays put until the end of the next action, in case of CoC the vampire goes to it's owner's uncontrolled region, etc).

By your previous post, this is obviously wrong.
Can you please elaborate?

Thanks,
Tiago

Spirit Marionette
[BL:C2, LoB:C]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Obeah/Dominate
[dom] Bleed at +1 bleed.
[obe] Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed).
[OBE] +1 stealth action. Take control of a ready untapped minion until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt.

Chain of Command
[Gehenna:C, KoT:C]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Dominate
+1 stealth action.
[dom] Put X younger vampires from your uncontrolled region in play with 1 blood from the blood bank each (and with any blood they already have). You cannot choose any unique vampires already in play. Those vampires must bleed. When one of them bleeds successfully, or when all that can bleed have, move them all to the bottom of your crypt.
[DOM] As above, but move X+1 younger vampires.

Different effects here, due to different wordings.

Spirit Marionnette waits till the end of the next action. This includes the window to use Heidelberg Castle ("only between actions").
Chain of Command returns the vampire(s) to the crypt if they can't bleed. Immediately. This is a permanent check ("when"), which is performed as soon as the action is resolved, which is before its very end (after which Heidelberg can be used).

Sorry to be extra annoying, but I want to clear this:

Q1. CoC on one vampire that can try to bleed. You can use Heilderberg?
A. No
B. Yes, but only after the bleed
C. Yes, between CoC and the attempt to bleed, 'cause they are two different actions; and also after the bleed

Q2. CoC on a vampire that from the start cannot bleed. Floppy's ruling above clearly states that the check is done immediately.
Does the vampire return to the uncontrolled area still during CoC's resolution?

Maybe Eliseu's is getting to me.

Thanks,
Tiago

Brum wrote:

Sorry to be extra annoying, but I want to clear this:

Q1. CoC on one vampire that can try to bleed. You can use Heilderberg?
A. No
B. Yes, but only after the bleed
C. Yes, between CoC and the attempt to bleed, 'cause they are two different actions; and also after the bleed

Yes, and only right after the Chain of Command.
Notice that afterwards, if the vampire is empty, he/she can't bleed, and is return to your crypt.
EDIT: After the bleed, the vampire is returned to your crypt. Whether he can Freak Drive is probably moot, but I'll try to get an answer.

Brum wrote:

Q2. CoC on a vampire that from the start cannot bleed. Floppy's ruling above clearly states that the check is done immediately.
Does the vampire return to the uncontrolled area still during CoC's resolution?

Maybe Eliseu's is getting to me.

Thanks,
Tiago

The vampire returns to the crypt after Chain of Command's resolution (which places the vampire from the uncontrolled area to the ready area) and before its end (where Heidelberg Castle would be usable).

So, CoC checks if the vampire can bleed before the vampire actually has a chance to try?

Tryphosa is on the table.
Acting Methuselah does CoC targeting Marciana Giovanni, turned Malkavian. Her bleeds cost 2 blood.
She goes to the uncontrolled region before Heilderberg can give her the blood she needs.

It's like CoC can predict if a vampire can bleed before he actually gets the chance to do so.

I assume the Acting Methuselah can use the Coven so Marciana can bleed...?
If not, we have just found VtES fastest effect.

Brum wrote:

So, CoC checks if the vampire can bleed before the vampire actually has a chance to try?

No, it constantly checks.

Brum wrote:

Tryphosa is on the table.
Acting Methuselah does CoC targeting Marciana Giovanni, turned Malkavian. Her bleeds cost 2 blood.
She goes to the uncontrolled region before Heilderberg can give her the blood she needs.

Correct.

Brum wrote:

It's like CoC can predict if a vampire can bleed before he actually gets the chance to do so.

It checks, there is no prediction involved here. If it were about foreseeing, you could argue that Heidelberg being usable, Marcianna could bleed.

Brum wrote:

I assume the Acting Methuselah can use the Coven so Marciana can bleed...?
If not, we have just found VtES fastest effect.

Sure you can. You can use the Coven whenever you want (except in the "as played" window, but that's in the rulebook).
See also: Arika with 2 blood bleeds with Govern + Conditioning. Tap Coven. Play Freak Drive.