times combat and winning with it. and the headaches included.

28 Nov 2013 19:29 #57220 by Juggernaut1981
Actually what I tend to find is that a proactive combat deck has to choose, VERY early which decks that want to play as predator and prey... then obliterate the others. You want the table to collapse into 3 players in the middle part of the game. That means you periodically take out a minion cross table or other things that can be seen as a "dick move".

Once the table is down to three players, you nuclear winter the vampires/minions as much as possible and bleed through for the win with 3VPs.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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28 Nov 2013 19:51 - 28 Nov 2013 19:52 #57222 by AaronC
I recently won a small tournament with this rush combat deck:

www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2013jbllac

I don't think it's a great deck, and the size of the tournament, the deck types present, and random seating had a lot to do with my success.

The deck was built to defend its pool by not spending a lot of pool. It was built to oust with constant bleeds for one and two and not just Fame. The rushes are there mainly to destroy its prey's vampires and defend against the occasional uppity predator vampire.

Vampire economy is always important and more so in non-intercept combat decks. However you do it, you have to maintain your pool cushion. But there are a lot of models. You just have to have the right recipe.

The terms "rush combat" deck or "bruise and bleed" deck are convenient, but I don't think they tell the full story. If my deck is mainly bruise and bleed, I also need some bounce, intercept, stealth, and/or rush to be successful. If my deck is mainly rush combat, I also need some ousting mechanic, non-rush defense, and/or stealth to be successful, not to mention sufficient actions.

No one talks about the importance of stealth in combat decks, but it really makes a difference.

Combat decks also need a build-up element to make it through the end-game, like equipment or master locations. One reason I don't like Eurobrujah and Beast/Theo decks is that the vampires are big and you have limited actions and few ways to build up except maybe superior Governs. (Well, I also don't like them because they've been done to death.)
Last edit: 28 Nov 2013 19:52 by AaronC.

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29 Nov 2013 07:37 #57234 by brandonsantacruz
In combat decks blood management is key. Do you fight at long range? Ok, less blood lost there on average. Close range? Now you have to prevent or not care about blood/minion loss.

Your combat cards have to be free or almost free. Crows/Bats is a good way to go. Increased Strength + Gate is less good because of the lack of pressing and lack of environmental damage.

Attrition is arguably a combat deck. Theft is a good way to go, given that one card nets you a two blood swing for free.

Pool gain or conversation is important to combat decks. Combat is a sub-game, so surviving the real game is a precondition to that.

Whatever happens, fuck war ghouls and Carlton.

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

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01 Dec 2013 06:09 #57270 by ReverendRevolver
Thinking of combat as a subgame is a very good way of putting it.
There will never be a card that says "d: send a vampire to torpor with no blood, add 5 blood to this acting miniom" we play redcards to achieve this.
Dealing with hitback is huge, at least for me. I always fear 1 agg from ivory bow, so sideslip, rego motus, or even adaptability is needed to be prepared for agg.

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02 Dec 2013 06:12 - 02 Dec 2013 06:15 #57390 by Jussi
I feel, that combat is more or less enabler rather than anything else.

Instead having lots of stealth or combat ends, you have reasonable amount of combat and rush cards. This means, that you need to focus on pool damaging and pool protection before you add any combat cards.

Since combat is most effective from mid to late game, you need to have plan to get there with minimal effort. You should go for silly pool gain and/or minion influencing and let the table evolve.

This means, that you should not do nothing much but bleed for the edge (and one for the other leg) and occasional rush your predator's minions if they seem like a real threat to your deck.

For the most part, you need to be patient. Sometimes it's more effective just to discard Torn Signpost than to rush and play Torn Signpost, IG, Blur, Taste of Vitae and torporize that IC of your prey. Likewise, it might be a good idea to rush that IC if it still has full capacity blood on it - but that's another story (you could play that Blur or Torn Signpost at inferior, so rush with a vampire with only inferior potence/celerity).

Playing a combat deck is more waiting and attrition than anything else. Don't forget, that pool and minions on your side win you games - the more you have both, the more chance you have winning.

!bruj! :CEL: :POT: :PRE: :cap6:
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight

We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
Last edit: 02 Dec 2013 06:15 by Jussi. Reason: Typos, clarifications
The following user(s) said Thank You: Von_Polack

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02 Dec 2013 16:30 #57394 by ReverendRevolver
Very valid, the waitng. Its always dumb luck if combat gets a vp before the table developes.

Thexbest situation for combat is being able to sit, build, and do little to players other than your prey.

I once won a table with g2 gargoyle combat, where id wrecked my prey, who had my grandprey on the ropes, and my presator was still in the game due to my rushing my grandpredator. My predator called krc with threexto his predator, one to himslef, called con boon gargoyle, and let dragonbound oust him. I bled out my prey, rescued a famous minion of my grandprey, torped with rock cat, and then decked myself and took 5 + turns to bleed out my grandpredator with the combat in my hand and standing depravity and armor of terra.

So, thats the best combats done for me.

You NEED a develoled table, full minions are bad even if you are amaranthing if everyones full. Full blood turns to pool in a mpa. Combat cant win if they cant control or limit opponents resources.

Basically, there are several possibilities on strategy, and some constants. But combat takes a ton of thought and its all about time and table dynamics, in my opinion.

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