Investments and House Rules

The reason why I'm for minions being able to remove the pool is because it increases minion interactions (which is also a reason why people complain about MMPA decks).

If I was to do anything, I'd just add a special rule to the book.


Investment:
An investment card represents a long-term scheme by the Methuselah to increase their resources, like a banking investment. During your minion phase, any of your ready minions may take an undirected +1 stealth action to transfer a counter from an investment you control to your pool. This action is in addition to any other ways to remove or burn the counters on an investment as provided by the text of other cards in play.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The reason why I'm for minions being able to remove the pool is because it increases minion interactions (which is also a reason why people complain about MMPA decks).

If I was to do anything, I'd just add a special rule to the book.


Investment:
An investment card represents a long-term scheme by the Methuselah to increase their resources, like a banking investment. During your minion phase, any of your ready minions may take an undirected +1 stealth action to transfer a counter from an investment you control to your pool. This action is in addition to any other ways to remove or burn the counters on an investment as provided by the text of other cards in play.

Or what about once per turn a minion may take an action to move a counter from an investment to the controller of that investment?

More interaction.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The reason why I'm for minions being able to remove the pool is because it increases minion interactions (which is also a reason why people complain about MMPA decks).

If I was to do anything, I'd just add a special rule to the book.


Investment:
An investment card represents a long-term scheme by the Methuselah to increase their resources, like a banking investment. During your minion phase, any of your ready minions may take an undirected +1 stealth action to transfer a counter from an investment you control to your pool. This action is in addition to any other ways to remove or burn the counters on an investment as provided by the text of other cards in play.

Or what about once per turn a minion may take an action to move a counter from an investment to the controller of that investment?

More interaction.

On the specific point of me being able to give you a counter from your investment, I'd personally rather avoid that because it adds scope for whining, collusion accusations, and that sort of thing, without - I think - adding enough of an interesting upside.

On the general point of a cardless action to do This Sort Of Thing, I'd be a little cautious. In particular, anything that requires actions potentially benefits decks that can take a lot of actions, and those are decks that - generally speaking - are doing okay.

So:

1) It doesn't hugely help Una-type decks significantly, because of the once-per-turn condition that's been added (which seems reasonable).

2) Multi-acting, non-Una decks e.g. Law Firm with a bunch of Freak Drives could benefit from it, although they might have better things to do anyway. But maybe with Parity Shift, people sometimes like to drop their pool total with an expensive card (like Secret Horde, which is an investment), so maybe it would have a niche there.

3) Weenie decks. Potentially, many spare actions.

4) Breed decks. Ditto. And if it's Camarilla breed with a few Parity Shifts...


It's mostly 3 and 4 where I'd have concerns. Being able to generate multiple pool a turn at stealth isn't entirely shabby, especially when in many cases their main pool gain at the moment is Doll/Vessel/Tribute + hunting, which can leave them on lower blood totals, making it harder for them to wake+bounce or whatever.


Basically, as with a bunch of suggestions like this, I think people are often thinking "Well, this would give (underpowered deck that lacks bloat and sucks a bit) an option." Which it might. But the option is also available to already good decks, and if it makes them better...

Perhaps with a capacity restriction? A rule that was something like "A vampire older than the number of counters on the investment card can..." might provide an unusual dynamic, maybe. So you'd need a 6 cap to take counters off a newly-minted Protracted Investment, but weenies could sweep up at the end. Maybe.

I was not doing it to push particular deck types up, but instead push Investments up.

I understand the point about the Weenie/Breed Decks, but on the flip side, a Weenie/Breed deck spending its action on Investments isn't ousting and is probably trying to stay alive. The other part is that doing these actions is about the same as hunting and has similar card-flow-management problems of Master-Jam.

It would be easy enough to edit to say "This action may not be repeated during a minion phase." to make it NRA tainted.

Capacity restrictions get messy and most of the investments don't get much past 3 counters anyway, so it's not much of a restriction to say Cap > X where X = counters on investment. Sure, a Secret Horde could get an assload of counters, but how often is that card played now anyway?

All in all, I'd put it as a neutral effect on Weenie/Breed decks. An irrelevant effect on a Lawfirm type deck. A non-event for a Star-Multiacting deck like an Una-Deck.

I'd be fine to playtest it somewhere as a house rule... but I'd need to get people willing to do it.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

I understand the point about the Weenie/Breed Decks, but on the flip side, a Weenie/Breed deck spending its action on Investments isn't ousting and is probably trying to stay alive. The other part is that doing these actions is about the same as hunting and has similar card-flow-management problems of Master-Jam.

Quite a few such decks are already taking those actions, doing the hunting + Doll/Vessel/Tribute. The key exception here is breed-boon, which - typically - doesn't need to do that anywhere near as much, as it passes Boons for 5, 6, 7... pool every now and then. (Though it probably still has a few.)

And that sort of thing causes your blood total to bounce up and down somewhat, especially if the vampires are also doing things like playing Deflection or Delaying Tactics what have you.

If your game environment is extremely hostile to Blood Doll (many Vessels, say), and Vessel already has a pool cost attached to it, and Tribute to the Master is scattershot enough that you might not play it anyway (perhaps one or two copies, if any), being able to play replace the hunting dance with a free action with a potentially similar amortized pool cost to Vessel might be attractive. Especially if you can find an angle to pop Swiss Cut in there.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Capacity restrictions get messy and most of the investments don't get much past 3 counters anyway, so it's not much of a restriction to say Cap > X where X = counters on investment.

Weenies and weenie breed don't typically include lots of 4 caps. Thus it guards somewhat against the deck types I'm concerned about, while not being much of a restriction against other decks - which is intentional!

(I originally thought something like "Capacity > 3", although I liked the counter version more.)

On the "Hunt-to-Bloat" point.

The biggest advantage that this change to Investments might give is the a way to gain pool against a rush-combat predator. It won't stop a wall predator (they'll block the +1 stealth action if its a hunt or a 'gain 1 pool'). A vote predator probably will be as stymied by either.

The biggest difference to these is that this would increase the versatility options, the player may choose to 'condemn' a minion to a hunt-loop-to-survive or they may instead put them to constantly stripping the investment.

The downside is that you have a greater opportunity cost because you have a greater delayed benefit. Blood Dolls repay their MPA as pool immediately. Vessel repays their cost as an immediate second MPA. An Investment, if you don't have the minions available, costs you in your Master Phase and then requires a number of actions in your minion phase to 'strip it'. Plus it provides no way to 'reclaim' your spent minion-pool.