Balancing Ashur Tablets

Jeff wrote:

It is debatable whether master phase actions are to be considered outside of or separate from the natural gameflow. I think there were some attempts back in the day to make 100% master card tournament winning decks when Anarch Revolt was still unaltered. Don't recall if any were every successful.

I seem to recall that some decks with nearly only Masters, with Anson as their spearhead, wrecked more than a few tables at that time.

Ashur wrote:

The most stupid thing I´ve heard today. Why should numerology exist in VtES?

Because the milieu of the card game is derived from a gothic fantasy role-playing game where Methuselahs who are thousands of years old battle for supremacy using any means at their disposal, and where their childer are taught truth, lies, conspiracies or nothing and often must discover their own undead identity from rumor, hearsay, myth, legend and storytelling?

13 is a good number. Add in the word "minion" between that number and the word "cards" and we end up better off.

By "we" I mean players tired of burning the same damn pentex 6 turns in a row due to anthelios and ashurs then still having to oust a girls deck. I'll pack 2 fames and not need to recur with tablets.

Also, people tired of hearing about old beef between Jeff and others.

To his credit, he no longer reminds me of the guy on Idiocracy who keeps saying "Brought to you by Carls Jr" but thats probably temporary.......

Also, Id like to think that we have moved on, since seriously NOBODY CARES and the other two members of PCK havent kept this up. Jeffs not a bad player, nominally as far as I know hes not a bad guy. But its almost like whenever anything about IC or DT function is brought up, magically Jeff appears to to point fingers with an occasional conspiracy theory to keep us awake.

Its like when Id say something and Ohlmann(where the hell did he go?) Would of course contradict. I posted card ideas JUST to see what hed tear at, because I knew any real problems EVER would get noticed.

Crazy.

But, I still dig numerology. Note that old as hell vampires probably are crazy enough to have counting compulsions, and OCPD in cases.

Jeff wrote:

It is debatable whether master phase actions are to be considered outside of or separate from the natural gameflow.

Depends on what "natural game flow" is. To me it's what you and others do with their minions and cards that affect them. This flow is the heart of VTES and one should not diverge much from it (imo).

Villein, vessel and suchlike affect game flow directly, you gain pool but leave your vamp more vulnerable. There's a (theoretical) tradeoff.

AT and Liquidation are odd design wise, they don't interact with minions. Hence I view them to be outside of the natural game flow. In a game where the nitty gritty revolves around minions, cards like these can easily offset balance.

This is all academic mumbo jumbo however... Cards like AT are in the game and I agree that they should not be banned or errata-ed. Which leaves mitigation by adding cards that reduce their playability as originally designed. If a card has no direct interaction with minions, there should be direct interaction with other methuselahs, which means in the case of AT a race to get 3 on the table first.

Ashur wrote:

You can´t be serious? Do you think numerology should be taken into account when designing balanced cards for a a card game? What also, Jahve and chemtrails?

When appropriate, why not? You can design from a desired cost or a desired effect, one of which can be a target number that has some significance in the World of Darkness.

GreyB wrote:

Jeff wrote:

It is debatable whether master phase actions are to be considered outside of or separate from the natural gameflow.

Depends on what "natural game flow" is. To me it's what you and others do with their minions and cards that affect them. This flow is the heart of VTES and one should not diverge much from it (imo).

Villein, vessel and suchlike affect game flow directly, you gain pool but leave your vamp more vulnerable. There's a (theoretical) tradeoff.

AT and Liquidation are odd design wise, they don't interact with minions. Hence I view them to be outside of the natural game flow. In a game where the nitty gritty revolves around minions, cards like these can easily offset balance.

This is all academic mumbo jumbo however... Cards like AT are in the game and I agree that they should not be banned or errata-ed. Which leaves mitigation by adding cards that reduce their playability as originally designed. If a card has no direct interaction with minions, there should be direct interaction with other methuselahs, which means in the case of AT a race to get 3 on the table first.

Not all master cards interact with minions, that's why they are called "master" cards.

Ascendance is just one of many examples.

i see a lot of arguments and suggestions. but as i see most common concern is for 'almost endless recycling' and 'endless while in game adjusted' library.

keep liquidation as it is. it's needed for a quite more deck than just one or two Cybele versions.

Adjust the Ashur tablets - simply let triggered ashurs remove all cards in the asheap except of those magic 13 cards. and them with 15 cards gone and 13 returned you might not be a complete winner.

Asnek wrote:

i see a lot of arguments and suggestions. but as i see most common concern is for 'almost endless recycling' and 'endless while in game adjusted' library.

keep liquidation as it is. it's needed for a quite more deck than just one or two Cybele versions.

Adjust the Ashur tablets - simply let triggered ashurs remove all cards in the asheap except of those magic 13 cards. and them with 15 cards gone and 13 returned you might not be a complete winner.

Spot on about arguments, but......

Earlier (675 pages ago?) This thread, I weeded through the TWDA for non-ashurs decks using liquidation. There were a few shabmbler decks, a few sudario decks, some that used both in concert, a big IC vote deck and one gangrel deck with one copy.

Comparatively, there were about 14 billion ashurs decks using it. Its an Ashur enabler, but Ashurs are more broken, for sure. The same logic proving its only broken with ashurs prove its only broken with ashurs.

So, Ashurs recurring masters is a problem. Id kinda support it nuking ashheaps, but they still recur stuff like masters and events. Killimg whole heap helps some, but not completely.

To stop saying the same thing over and over again, maybe tablets either atay at 3 and dissallow playing more for that methuselah, or when one person hits 3, remove all other copies from play, leave the 3, and if you have 3 you cant play more (so, if someone else pops 3, yours burn and you can play more).

Just an idea.