Balancing Ashur Tablets

I agree that I hat e this card too, only because it slows the game down... 13 cards is way too much... sure it is Lucky 13 and sounds cool and all, realistically should still be playable with even two or three cards fetched, no?

A fair question:

Woould you still play it with lower amount of cards fetched? I'm not sure how to make a poll.... but sounds like an interesting one 2? 3? 6? cards

Merci kinedly

Orpheus wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

Orpheus wrote:

Nearly 1 in 5 is still a LOT !!

Actually 16% is almost exactly one in six, not five...

Point still stands.

Orpheus wrote:

How often do you see Trochomancy played ?!

Saw some played in last Sunday's tournament.

Lönkka wrote:

Use if quite often myself too.

Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?

Doubling down on false assertions does not a reasonable argument make.

a lot of interesting points were made above.

TWDA
we all know TWDA does not have complete and exact results as there are too many missing records. on the other hand is fact that many players do not play ashur deck on tournaments being afraid of already described screw up when two of them meet.
16% in TWDA means every sixth tournament was WON by ashur deck not that there was 16% of decks containing ashurs!!! when you can compare it to whole used game mechanics it's similar to amount of COMBAT decks that won a tournament.
are we really ok that ashur deck is becoming simply a 'strategy' same as combat or politics are? yes it's true that you can't win the game by simply playing ashurs, but as game mechanism they are used way too often and role ashurs can (and usually) play in game results are too high.
it's true that several interesting decks would not exist without ashurs, but it's sad true that most of decks are simply better with them.
per my experience since ashurs show up i see them on every tournament and usually in finals as well. maybe one tournament without ashurs deck(s) in finals occurred in last 2-3 years here.

MPAs
unfortunately this failed out of discussion too quickly.
personally for me biggest problem is that decks are able to pull out 'complete' set of ashurs out of nowhere. all you need is proper vampire and Parthenon on table. i have seen this effect to completely change the game more than once.
Sudden reversal and wash is not an answer for ashur tablet decks, they do play anthelios to dig it back and/or play too many of them to be stoped.

cards recursion:
this is not huge problem, options for recursion were there in past. yes this one bring it out of regular clans, but it does not change anything. biggest concern i see in that 1 cards is placed into hand. this 'cheat' hand operations won too many games and many times before game was over as deciding moment occurred in round 7 from 13 for example.

ashur card terms:
many do concern that recycling master cards is powerful, but this is not the option. if you play ashur tablet trigger them and use second MPA for card returned to hand it's same as you would have used anthelios but it did cost you 4 MPAs not 2. bonus? of course you get another 12 cards and 3 pools.
choosing [up to 13] cards may be the problem. change wording that you had to have at least 13 cards in asheap and this will block few times ability to play 'third ashur'

we have tested 'changed' version of ashurs for one play weekend. ashurs were triggered by 3 on table not 3 controlled by one player. every other aspect worked. players gain 1 pool and returned 4 cards to library per ashur tablet they controlled and player who played 'last' one gets 'bonus card to hand' effect.
worked fine. while controled all by 1 player no problem occurs 13 cards are digged back as usual. no blockages for tablets controled by various players and most important amount of tablets used in one deck in game cannot be so easily predicted. seen Cybele deck screep up 2 sets of ashurs to Nana Buruku deck and then die, ending for nana with 5 ashurs in desk not able to run 2 sets anymore. he still got his 16 cards and 4 pool for tablets played, but at the end 2 of them were in his deck for nothing.

there were several other suggestions we considered and i tried to 'play test' some of them:
solution: to resolve MPAs problem try to increase amount of tablet's required to trigger whole combo to 4. keep all other terms unchanged.
+ it's almost impossible to run them in 1 round now so there need to be at least some table at the table to predict it w(c)ould come.
- const one more MPA is forcing to definitively play more trifles and serious drop on other master cards. completely forced me to stop using Minion Taps with ashurs.

to resolve card recursion problems:
suggestion: make ashurs to trigger (when in proper amount on table) in discard phase instead of resolving them right away.
+ you get the whole combo for minimal card change, but delayed for next turn, not usable for probably most feared return of pentex.
- part of combo is gone and we all cry for return of pentex, oh wait there is still Anthelion, there is a light at the end of the tunnel...
suggestion 2: make ashurs to trigger when in proper amount on table as discard phase action. when so triggered remove your 3 copies, but keep others (even you own) in play.
+ you do not loose you tablets when there are other players, but still need to spend 3 MPAs to gain effect and as an addition you pay with your discard phase (with this model you can say that by triggering this you return a card to you hand as discard... and some aditional cards goes into library...)
- same as above and you can't screew other's people tablets.
suggestion 3: allow player to cycle on 1 set of ashurs per game
+ endless recursion is gone, 13 cards do help you and still may make a huge difference at the end game. as need for amount of tablets per player will definitively drop with this there might be help on other (40 EURO) problems with ashurs as well.
- some decks will simply stop to work.

ashur card terms:
suggestion: change wording that you had to have at least 14 cards in asheap and this will block few times ability to play 'third ashur'
+ can't trigger them with half empty asheap.
- can result in holding last ashur in hand for 2-3 turns, while somebody else can trigger them and screw you.

johannes wrote:

Asnek wrote:

16% in TWDA means every sixth tournament was WON by ashur deck not that there was 16% of decks containing ashurs!!! when you can compare it to whole used game mechanics it's similar to amount of COMBAT decks that won a tournament.
are we really ok that ashur deck is becoming simply a 'strategy' same as combat or politics are?

You do realize that a lot of the Ashurs decks are COMBAT decks which were enabled by Ashurs?

Very important to note that Ive only ever felt Ashurs were NEEDED in fluid combat where you run out of cards

Thats why limiting ti minion cards helps. Making 4 needed to trigger would be less optimal than banning, since it makes ONLY mmpa decks really able to drop enough.
Master recursion is a problem. Anthelios is what is is, but gaining liquidation pool then ashurs pool to just pick up what you still want is broken. Ban liquidation (after i sell mine, naturally)?

Ashurs letting decks play alot of cards and recur instead of runout is good.

Letting 75 card decks pack tools and smaller numbers of cards they need to recur is also good.

Its turning your deck into pool and your asheap into a second deck, then cherrypicking just what you want to be in your deck each turn that break tablets

Ferox combat recurring red cards and rushes, not ever broken. Anson recurring red cards, secomd trads, and parity shifts? Not too bad. Nana and Cybele letting you villein for 8, gain liquidation pool possibly twice, then pipping tablets to gain more and pick up 12 cards back to deck, ignoring the chaff? Yea, seriously problematic, since they put liquidated ashurs back to deck, accidentally liquidated anthelios back in deck, pentexes, DIs, Suddens, and whatever else to lock down the game and barely ever bother touching your minions...... its not good vtes.

Combat decks:
A. Suck
B. Need help
C. Like recurring redcards, since nothing else is as temporary as combat cards.

Master heavy decks are bad in 96% of every good thing in vtes. Tablets can be changed to make them not as evil.

We can test anything.

But I worry that wed hate life alot if testing Girls variants all the time......

Yeah, Master recursion need to go or become limited. Ashur/Liquidation is just stupid.

Lech wrote:

Yeah, Master recursion need to go or become limited. Ashur/Liquidation is just stupid.

this can be easily resolved. add some card text and it's done.
If Ashurs would be automatically removed when dropped into asheap... yeah liquidate what do you want, but those ashurs you liquidated are gone for this game...

How often do you really run across the apparenty "dreaded" Liquidation + Ashur combo?

Been quite a while for me at least...

Lönkka wrote:

How often do you really run across the apparenty "dreaded" Liquidation + Ashur combo?

Been quite a while for me at least...

hmm quite often i'm affraid... 2 weeks ago i played my own on casual games and not more than 2 months ago i met this deck in tournament finals.