How can one churn excess or duplicate Master cards (beneficially)?

I would love to see master combo cards

Something like Ascendance
Master
Gain 1 pool

Action Modifier
Usable only after a successful action: Gain 1 pool

Bloodartist wrote:

hollowboy wrote:

Bloodartist wrote:

Same for procurer. I wonder who invented these cards.. I think we should look into introducing new, more efficient minion action card options for gaining blood, or gaining a hunting ground as a minion action. Currently its just too effective to use master cards for this.

I use Procurer fairly often, e.g:
-Get procurer with a chump 3-cap, to feed the star vampire(s).
-Get Procurer with someone else's vampire (when playing Temptation).
-Get Procurer, then explode the Procurer (when playing Khobar Towers).
-Get procurer with Danielle Diron to make her special kick in faster.
...and they also work fine as chump blockers.

Not sure if you got my meaning. I'm not saying procurer and palatial estate are 'useless', I'm saying they are weaker and less efficient (since especially procurer already cost multiple actions) than master card options for blood economy, and thus, there is little space for them in my opinion.

How does procurer 'cost' multiple actions?

I don't see how it is worse blood economy than cards like Vessel. They simply work differently. You can't move blood between vampires with a single Vessel. You can't borrow a vampire (Temptation) and drain 2 blood off it with Vessel.

Bloodartist wrote:

Procurer as a chump blocker makes no sense. It costs 2 blood and has 1 life, no way to survive combat, no permanent intercept. You might as well block with the vampire who would recruit procurer in the first place, and take the default one damage. It would cost you less blood and less actions. Math is simply not on procurers side.

By 'chump blocker', I mean 'blocker who is a chump', not blocker of chumps.

I never intend to block with the Procurers, but in one of my FoS decks, I often did use them as emergency blockers.

e.g. Dedefra is Famous. Beast rushes her. I throw Procurer in the way. Next turn, Dedefra is still ready, so can go to Khobar Towers. That's +9 pool, relative to Dedefra being in torpor.

Bloodartist wrote:

There may be place for procurer in an ally horde deck with a way to reduce recruiting costs and unmasking, but as a basic blood economy card it sucks. I'd rather play vessel.

?? It depends on the need.

If you have a star vampire who you need to pump blood onto, you could play a Vessel on the star, and a Vessel on a supporting 3-cap. That costs 2 pool, and the little vampire will have to spend most of the game hunting. Those are wasted actions.

Procurer does this more cheaply in actions and pool.

I just put together a Legacy deck, which stars Danielle Diron and Ramona. I put both Vessel and Procurer in there, and if you look at their special abilities, the reason should be obvious.

With Danielle, Khobar Towers, Golconda, maybe others, smashing all the blood off a vampire is good to do.

Grimm is the best (on topic) suggestion in this thread! Thanks.

hollowboy wrote:

How does procurer 'cost' multiple actions?

1. turn Procurer is recruited. Blood cost is 2 (-2)
2. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (-1)
3. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (0), now at same that the vampire was before recruiting procurer
4. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (+1) You have finally GAINED something.

Addition is apparently hard.

Bloodartist wrote:

hollowboy wrote:

How does procurer 'cost' multiple actions?

1. turn Procurer is recruited. Blood cost is 2 (-2)
2. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (-1)
3. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (0), now at same that the vampire was before recruiting procurer
4. turn Procurer adds 1 blood on the vampire (+1) You have finally GAINED something.

that sequence only cost your original minion one action. So 'procurer already cost multiple actions' doesn't really make sense.

I think a better phrasing is that it is slow to recoup - if using Procurer with just 'the' (singular) vampire, and no support cards / abilities.

So don't use it that way.

If you use Procurer to pump blood from one vampire to another, it recoups much more quickly:

1. turn Procurer is recruited by vampire A.
2. turn Procurer adds 1 blood to vampire B.

It gets better
- if Vampire A is special somehow (e.g. has been borrowed from your predator via Temptation, or will soon be removed from play)
- if churning allies is intrinsically useful to your deck (e.g. in combo with Shambling Hordes and/or Khobar Towers)

Because there are several scenarios where procurer is substantially better than using a Master card (you can't turn a spare Vessel into a Shambling Horde or War Ghoul, and it would be silly to put Vessel on a vampire that you want to Golconda next turn), I think I've given a valid response to your original question 'I wonder who invented these cards [...] Currently its just too effective to use master cards'.

Bloodartist wrote:

Addition is apparently hard.

Why the insult? What are you hoping to gain?

If you had communicated more clearly, I wouldn't have needed to ask the question.