file If Govern was 2 blood (analysis)

25 Mar 2019 15:18 #94252 by Mewcat

LivesByProxy wrote: @Mewcat:
I have lost twice in the finals of two tournaments in the past ~4? months. Both to Jblacey, once as my predator, another time as my prey and predator. He won both of those tournaments. If I recall, in the 1st one he played Anarch !Toreador with Palla Grande and Undue Influence. In the 2nd one he played Kiasyd stealth power(?) bleed. At the 1st tournament, every one of his turns was "bleed for 3." with the !Toreador Anarchs. At the 2nd, every one of his turns was "bleed for 3." - "no blocks?" *plays Conditioning* "make it 6."

I recently played against another more casual player (my predator) who also choose to play Kiasyd. Imagine my confusion when she's playing Riddle Phantastique and Entombment instead of trying to Govern+Conditioning stealth-bleed. I think she might have Govern bleed once the whole game?


Sure. Bleed for 3+ is a great way to get vp. The existence of deflection just means that you want to do it all the time instead of sporadically.

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25 Mar 2019 15:40 #94253 by Kraus

Right but 2 disciplines out of, I don't know, 20 now that can do the most basic ousting acting so much better than the others as to effectively be a different action doesn't strike you as an internal inconsistency?

It does. I wouldn't mind that bleed extras are mainly in three (Dementation is sooo good) disciplines if the rest of them had a bit more variety in ousting methods. Or, clans.

Anyways. More ousting methods would be welcome.

P.S. yes I am engaging in the same semantics as you just with 'primarily' instead of 'nothing else happens' to try to create a binary argument. not cool man

I meant no offense. :) It slipped through.

But because text based argumentation and being in the interwebz is what it is, I often do get a picture of people thinking control cards are a non-factor in games and bleeding is actually the only thing that happens. Which isn't true. But I'm okay with being told that it's just me. It just as well could be, since I don't know you guys in person.

Soz, I wasn't flaming intentionally. :)

Bleeding for 3 is what you should often be doing if you're planning to win in VtES, that's for sure. I'm not trying to say it wouldn't be the main offensive strategy at the moment. Either you do it with a gadzillion minions, one super big minion, or some mid-cap minions.

To be fair though, I don't know what should be done about it (if anything). There's also the factor of the first player practically skipping a lot of build-up momentum just because they happened to draw the shortest straw, and to be honest I don't know how much going first actually helps in VtES. Stuff like that that aren't directly card text related.

Just printing better cards outside of dominate will probably be what's going to happen to VtES at this point. My seer skills tell me the world where 80% of cards printed before 2020 will be wallpaper is what we'll be left with.

And BCP needs to make money with new cards too, so~

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25 Mar 2019 18:02 - 25 Mar 2019 21:10 #94255 by Lech

Just printing better cards outside of dominate will probably be what's going to happen to VtES at this point. My seer skills tell me the world where 80% of cards printed before 2020 will be wallpaper is what we'll be left with.

And BCP needs to make money with new cards too, so~


Isn't already more than 80% wallpapers?

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Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Last edit: 25 Mar 2019 21:10 by Lech.

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26 Mar 2019 08:33 #94261 by Lönkka

Kraus wrote:

Deflection is also a big offender, and it clearly must be problematic, because a nerfed version of it was printed: Redirection.

Well, logically that isn't as factual as you make it to appear.


Well, Deflection and lower powered version of it, Redicrection, is just very much in the vein of how things have been done with Dominate from day one. There is the more expensive and effective version but also inferior version that is free.

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Conditioning vs Threats

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26 Mar 2019 10:47 #94265 by elotar
We already can see, that BCP is not going to change the game significantly, so this discussion is totally pointless. Also in all such cases there should be some general "ideal" of the game (usually in the head of the lead designer) with which we should compare improvement suggestions. Otherwise it will be even more pointless, as everybody got their own ideas about what is good and what is wrong for the game.

For the record - for me it's obvious, that Govern should cost 2 blood, Conditioning inferior should be just +1 bleed and bleed redirection should be widely available (something like generic reaction for 1 blood "redirect bleed of 3 or more").

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26 Mar 2019 12:31 #94266 by TwoRazorReign

elotar wrote: We already can see, that BCP is not going to change the game significantly, so this discussion is totally pointless. Also in all such cases there should be some general "ideal" of the game (usually in the head of the lead designer) with which we should compare improvement suggestions. Otherwise it will be even more pointless, as everybody got their own ideas about what is good and what is wrong for the game.


I would also say this discussion is pointless, but only because making Govern cost 2 blood serves only those who have played the game for a very long time and want the tournament meta to change. Lost in all this discussion is that not only would changing the printed cost affect casual play arguably for the worse, it also would make it much, much harder for a new player to show up at a tournament and be successful. I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

For the record - for me it's obvious, that Govern should cost 2 blood, Conditioning inferior should be just +1 bleed and bleed redirection should be widely available (something like generic reaction for 1 blood "redirect bleed of 3 or more").


I do agree about making bleed redirection widely available, but i'm not sure your proposal is the way to go. People may shy away from bleeds of 3 or more if they know there's a good chance it's going to get redirected, which I think would grind the game to a halt.
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