lock power level debate on cam and sabbat

07 Aug 2019 13:17 - 07 Aug 2019 13:24 #96195 by Kraus

It is also really stupid to compare cards in a vacuum in a game with so many layers as VTES has. You need to take into account that potence has access to grapple and torn signpost, just to name a few cards.

Which is exactly the point of the Sabbat title cards compared to Camarilla titled cards - the sabbat defensive cards when toppled with synergy are actually really good.

Any +intercept constant abilities boost both Abbot and Under Siege slightly more than 2nd Tradition. Those cards compress card slots when combined with other card effects, whereas 2nd Tradition, or all copies of it, are powerful single use instances. Sabbat defenses are compressing card slots, which is good.

I don't know what you're trying to argue for here. The most direct comparison to TTK is Target Vitals actually - and that adds damage and denies presses from the opponent. No requirements, no nothing. It's just a better used card slot. Another comparison is Mighty Grapple - no blood cost, no requirement of 3+ damage done, similar effects...

I'd be surprised if I have to write out the comparison for you or anyone to back this up. Those are - as said - a more efficiently used card slot.

For those who are competent in VtES' card balance analysis and the game, it is blindingly obvious that Twisting the knife is horrible. If you'll find a use of one in a competitively sound deck concept and actually do well with it, all the more power to you.

It's debatable if 2nd Tradition vs Under Siege is better. They are serving a similar purpose with very different opportunity costs. The quick way to analyze them would be to say that they're roughly equal in power, but they have different costs to trigger. That's about it. It's really hard to determine if either is 'better', if at all possible. They're both strong with different synergies.

Is there much else to talk about those specific cards?

You could analyze other cards, like Camarilla specific political actions like Archon or Alastor, and make an analysis within Camarilla clans on which clan uses them best, and even then TWDA might speak volumes of the usability of those cards. They're strong in paper but not game breaking.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 13:24 by Kraus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Khormag
The topic has been locked.
More
07 Aug 2019 13:46 - 07 Aug 2019 13:52 #96197 by Mewcat
I don't know what you're trying to argue for here. The most direct comparison to TTK is Target Vitals actually - and that adds damage and denies presses from the opponent. No requirements, no nothing. It's just a better used card slot. Another comparison is Mighty Grapple - no blood cost, no requirement of 3+ damage done, similar effects...
*******************

Target vitals is not a good comparison. It is weak against fortitude and can be cancelled by any combat cards. Just not reliable. Mighty grapple is a strike but TTK is an add on.

What I am accomplishing here is generally called sarcasm. I am placing a mirror in front on Khormag and forcing him to look deep inside himself.

*************
It's debatable if 2nd Tradition vs Under Siege is better. The quick way to analyze them would be to say that they're roughly equal in power, but they have different costs to trigger. *****************
False. Misleading and false. I am an experienced rhetoritician. You need to make actual points.
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 13:52 by Mewcat.
The topic has been locked.
More
07 Aug 2019 14:20 #96198 by Mewcat
I have a simple ironclad card evaluation process.

Does martin weimereiner play it? If so it is better than a card he does not.
The topic has been locked.
More
07 Aug 2019 17:46 - 07 Aug 2019 18:02 #96199 by Khormag
Ehm. Did you not read my post at all? I literally said that you cant compare cards in a vacuum. That is why there is the "rule" number 5 in the card evaluation thingy. You just handily miss out the context of the whole game, where you can use more than one discipline, and even non discipline cards.

If you want more presses with potence, other than Immortal Grapple, you can pair it with other disciplines, or play cards like Trap or Dead End Alley, or even both. Potence is often paired with Celerity, which gives you access to multitude of ways to continue combat and or hit more in form of Additional Strikes.

On the effect of the card. One press for one blood is super bad ratio, the bonus one damage doesn't really matter, and the extra press is only useful when you don't have grapple or the opposing vampire has a press to end. Presses are quite rare on decks, so lets say its useful only 50% of the time. And that is hugely over the real need of it.

I have no idea how pulled fangs works the same as Twisting the Knife. Pulled Fangs is more comparable to Disarm, which is also a card that makes Twisting the Knife less desirable. As hitting for 3 is usually enough to allow for you to play Disarm.

Even if you just want more damage and presses, more effective way would be to play just Target Vitals, as the card gives you more damage, and effectively gives you the press, as it forbids the opposing minion from using presses. Target Vitals doesn't even need any disciplines and is more powerful with the vampires with inferior Potence.

You could also use something like Target Head, which works well with potence, as its damage is not preventable by preventing just the "original" strike damage. By the way, Twisting the Knife is as bad as Target Vitals or Target Head against fortitude, as against Potence fortitude pretty much has to use the "prevent all damage from opposing strikes" effects to really make a difference. No amount of added damage to the strike will get trough that.

I don't really think you actually understand how much combat is usually played in a VTES deck. Unless you are playing a dedicated combat deck, you rarely go abowe 10 combat card, most of the time it is rare to see more than 5-6. Preventing Target Vitals by discarding two combat cards is not that "useful" as it would look like. It is a niche drawback, that is relevant in maybe 1 out of 5 games.

Prince of Joensuu, Finland
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 18:02 by Khormag.
The topic has been locked.
More
07 Aug 2019 18:04 - 07 Aug 2019 18:11 #96200 by Kraus

You need to make actual points.

What is yours?

If it's that Camarilla cards are strictly superior to Sabbat cards, I'm ready to agree to disagree.

A rhethorical dance, in my opinion, does not get us much anywhere.

We are, after all, here to have a discussion about the power levels of cards between sects, not to school each other on communicative phenomena or tactics.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 07 Aug 2019 18:11 by Kraus.
The topic has been locked.
More
07 Aug 2019 18:27 #96201 by Mewcat

Kraus wrote:

You need to make actual points.

What is yours?

If it's that Camarilla cards are strictly superior to Sabbat cards, I'm ready to agree to disagree.

A rhethorical dance, in my opinion, does not get us much anywhere.

We are, after all, here to have a discussion about the power levels of cards between sects, not to school each other on communicative phenomena or tactics.


I agree. That is why when I present an idea and a manner in which I came to that idea and the response is "game is so complex", "what you are forgetting is" then reading the card to me like a clown I feel the need to express how meaningless that type of communication is.

At least blue panda or whatever had an idea (basically that discipline cards can be played at basic, titled cards are binary, and ideas of percentages of crypt that need to play cards). I was hoping he would flesh that out.

I will introduce an idea now. Taking actions to get intercept is not strong. Am I to run stealth in my wall deck and hope I draw the right things at the right time? Under siege is fine but 2nd tradition is stupid good. Under siege is closer to raven spy in my estimation.
The topic has been locked.
More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.140 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum