file Trifle - After a master is played

08 Jan 2020 22:57 #98475 by jamesatzephyr

Sambomb wrote: If you already can play Villein, then play Giants Blood why not Giants Blood and then Villein?
...
I want to be able to whenever it is possible, to don't be restricted to a specific order of cards.


If I play Engling Fury at SPI ("The acting vampire gains 2 blood and unlocks.") and then Social Charm, I can take two actions with the same minion. If I only draw Social Charm first, I can only take one action with that minion.

If I play Seduction and draw Conditioning, I can play them both on this action. If I play Conditioning and draw Seduction, I can't.

If I have a wake and draw into some intercept, I can play them both. If I have intercept and would draw into the wake, I can't play either.

If I have a maneuver and I draw into Thrown Sewer Lid, I can play both. The other way round, neither.

If I play my Undead Strength and draw into my Immortal Grapple, I can't shut my opponent's about-to-be-declared weapon strike off. The other way round, I could.

The game is stuffed with situations where two cards, even two cards of the same type, have to be played in a specific order, and if you draw them in a 'bad' order, that sucks but it's just how the game works. It's not obvious to me why trifles need changing but every other situation where this happens doesn't.
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09 Jan 2020 01:36 #98478 by Kilrauko
If the changes are done and text in Wash is not changed, it results in methuselah playing the "free" trifle gaining extra MPA. If we go with "first trifle not counting against MPA" wording that is. Being old card having it's text and mechanics changed to take into account free trifles, perhaps in this way;

Name: Wash
[Third:U, LotN:PS, KoT:U, SP:LB1]
Cardtype: Master
Out-of-turn. Trifle. Do not replace until your unlock phase.
Cancel a master card played by your predator or prey as it is played, and its cost is not paid. That Methuselah gets +1 master phase action immediately if the card they played was not a trifle, or at the start of their next master phase if the canceled card is an out-of-turn master that was not a trifle.

And naturally to get into the current effect where Sudden reversal can disrupt a MPA away from player there needs to be inclusion of -1MPA in it's text if the suddened card is a trifle, like so. After all compare current Villein that gets Suddened to the suggested "does not count against MPA" Villein that gets Suddened. In the first one there is 0 MPA left, in the suggested there is 1 MPA.

Name: Sudden Reversal
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PV, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2/PAG, KMW:PAl, LoB:PA/PG/PI, HttB:PKia, SP:DoF1/PwN2, FB:PM1]
Cardtype: Master
Out-of-turn.
Cancel a master card played by another Methuselah as it is played, and its cost is not paid.That Methuselah gets -1 master phase action immediately if the cancelled master was a trifle.

Thankfully we do not have lots of new cards around in preconstructed decks, 2 out of 10 is acceptable and I'm sure first blood demo games benefit from the "yeah the card says it works like that but actually..." If this is done without balancing cancel card texts, it will cause issues with current starter decks and games, namely reducing effectiveness of cancel cards up to hilarious level (giving +1 MPA to enemy.)

I understand the spirit of the notion, and while I do not agree with it's current suggested form (due to the balance changes I listed) I am not opposed to it if those balance changes are addressed. When playing oust game with any deck I wish to ensure my prey does not Villein + Villein even that 5 pool pull if I pay the price by holding a cancel master in my hand for oust. If they wish to ensure it, they need to play MPA archetype deck to ensure getting the second Villein off if first one is cancelled. I'm all for making more clear game for new players, I just fail to see how this version of wording "does not count against MPA" or "one trifle free" or any variant that does not tie it to taking away MPA achieves it in a fashion that does not disrupt existing MPA balance.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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09 Jan 2020 01:49 #98479 by Sambomb
Good points.
Maybe:
Trifle: Once per turn, you can play a Trifle before or after a master phase action, this effect could not be used if you don't have a master phase action.

Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510

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09 Jan 2020 07:51 #98481 by Lech
You can on the other hand play trifle after your oot master, which make them a lot better.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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