file Ventrue Group 5-6 Best Strategy

27 Oct 2020 21:06 - 27 Oct 2020 21:06 #100994 by Morlin
Good night, fellow Kindred!

I am a new player and want to start with the 5th Edition box, playing with the new crypt cards. My first choice is Ventrue, and I really need your support and help with a couple of noob questions.

From what I see in the previews, Ventrue got a lot of mid-range Princes (capacity 6-7), and I suspect BCP want us to go multiacting: Horst von Bruhl with superior FOR, and Sybren van Oosten with built-in political unlock. Add Alice Chen, Maddison, and (possibly) Graham Gottesman and Victor Donaldson from Group 5 - and we have a seemingly decent political mid-range. From my zero-experience point of view, the deck can be explosive with KRC - Freak Drive - bleed with GtA turns coming from multiple princes, and can go off a couple of turns faster than a heavy Inner Circle deck.

But I understand that what looks great on paper does not always work. So I have some questions:
1. How do you think this deck can perform in the meta? It seems capable of outbleeding and redirecting popular stealth-bleed decks - but will it crumble against walls and higher-cap politics?
2. Do we need to spread the library for all three clan disciplines or can we concentrate on DOM-FOR or maybe even PRE-FOR? I would happily go all three but we don't have a good 7-cap prince with 3 superior disciplines. Do we need to add some discipline masters?
3. Do we have a better deck for Ventrue in Groups 5-6? Will it benefit from adding high-caps like Blaire and Lodin?

Thank you for your input.
Morlin.
Last edit: 27 Oct 2020 21:06 by Morlin.

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28 Oct 2020 08:20 - 28 Oct 2020 08:26 #100999 by Lech
Why you forget about Lodin? He is not hight cap by any means.

Also, 6 cap with PRE for is worth considering, as well as Tara, 6 cap with just PRE.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Last edit: 28 Oct 2020 08:26 by Lech.

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28 Oct 2020 08:46 - 28 Oct 2020 08:57 #101000 by Bloodartist

Morlin wrote: But I understand that what looks great on paper does not always work. So I have some questions:
1. How do you think this deck can perform in the meta? It seems capable of outbleeding and redirecting popular stealth-bleed decks - but will it crumble against walls and higher-cap politics?
2. Do we need to spread the library for all three clan disciplines or can we concentrate on DOM-FOR or maybe even PRE-FOR? I would happily go all three but we don't have a good 7-cap prince with 3 superior disciplines. Do we need to add some discipline masters?
3. Do we have a better deck for Ventrue in Groups 5-6? Will it benefit from adding high-caps like Blaire and Lodin?

Thank you for your input.
Morlin.


Meta is always local, so it differs from place to place.

Multiacting is extremely strong, and voting with freak drives (so you can vote and bleed during the same turn) is extremely strong. The vampires in the V5 box seem quite good bang for their buck.

However, the issue with ventrue in general is usually not their ousting ability (which tends to be excellent); but their inherent lack of stealth. A single point of intercept has the potential to stop a ventrue deck dead (counteracting that 1 stealth from a political action or superior enchant kindred). Imagine playing this deck against a Nephandi deck that has unmasking out (giving +1 intercept to all allies). How do you plan to get through that wall?

The way many attempt to solve this problem is with weighted walking sticks or similar, alongside damage prevention cards. In other words, if ventrue get blocked, they rap their walking sticks, deal more damage to the blocker than they themselves receive, and keep doing it until the way is clear. In other words, they bang their heads through the wall. This grindy playstyle is really not my cup of tea, so I can say little about it.

The default V5 deck is light on combat, only having some majesties. Which seem good at a glance (act, get blocked, majesty leaving you unlocked and blocker locked), but wont help you much pierce a +1 intercept wall I detailed above. There are some tap cards (anarch troublemaker, misdirection) which can be ok when prey has only a few unlocked minions.

The deck is probably fine when playing against the other preconstructed decks, but I would be hesitant taking it to a VTES tournament as it is. It can work, but I wouldn't want to be playing it.

In terms of votes, I think the deck can hold its own. Especially with ventrue HQ which I might add a second copy of (take away visit from capuchin) just so you draw it more reliably. If you add the voter vampires you mentioned, the deck can bring out enough princes to be competitive.

A formula for bringing out bigger caps you want to consider: Zillahs valley a bigcap voter out, villein them for 5, then vote something and pass with enough many votes, voter captivation to get that blood back that you villeined. The key issue for Ventrue is getting that political action through. With all the cards at my disposal, this is the one issue I haven't been able to solve satisfactorily.

Recommended card additions:
creepshow casino (give you +1 stealth for an undirected action)
Uncoiling (to destroy unmasking which kills your deck dead)
Mary Anne Blaire (although you might need some more bloating than 3 blood dolls to counteract her cost)

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 28 Oct 2020 08:57 by Bloodartist.

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28 Oct 2020 15:23 #101003 by Morlin
Thank you so much for this detailed answer! That's a real community input!

Even with my zero experience, I can foresee the problems with wall decks. As well as with rush combat decks. And, just like you, I wouldn't want to dilute the focus of the deck by adding Sticks and FOR combat cards. What I think about is Seduction and Approximation of Loyalty. Together with Blind Spots, we can be able to push through key political actions or bleeds. Essentially, we build a Giovanny Powerbleed-like deck, but with multiacting and votes.

Alternatively, we can think of adding a sprinkle of stealth. Alice Chen already has basic OBF, but it is too little. Maybe, we can recruit some Malkavians into a deck to help us? Andi Liu looks particularly promising. What do you think?

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28 Oct 2020 16:45 #101006 by Timo

Morlin wrote: Thank you so much for this detailed answer! That's a real community input!

Even with my zero experience, I can foresee the problems with wall decks. As well as with rush combat decks. And, just like you, I wouldn't want to dilute the focus of the deck by adding Sticks and FOR combat cards. What I think about is Seduction and Approximation of Loyalty. Together with Blind Spots, we can be able to push through key political actions or bleeds. Essentially, we build a Giovanny Powerbleed-like deck, but with multiacting and votes.

Alternatively, we can think of adding a sprinkle of stealth. Alice Chen already has basic OBF, but it is too little. Maybe, we can recruit some Malkavians into a deck to help us? Andi Liu looks particularly promising. What do you think?


If you want to play bleed/vote/stealth/multi act and have some utility cards (namely masters and defense) you will have some stability issues. You could having your vote modifier without votes, not drawing your stealth when needed and your freak drive with only 1 type of action in hand etc...

It is the dream to want to have everything but it rarely works like that.

Except if you have some very versatile cards like Forced march for multi acting AND stealth, Govern the Unaligned for crypt acceleration AND bleed, perfect paragon for push vote AND stealth etc and even with that, it is difficult to manage consistency.

So adding :obf: stealth seems a bad idea because of what I just said and because of crypt availabality...

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28 Oct 2020 19:47 #101010 by Morlin
Timo, you are certainly right - the deck might lose focus, get bad hands at the wrong time, and, most of all, it will lose its Ventrue feel and turn into a Lasombra deck with a different clan symbol.

So please join the discussion and give me some tips on how I can build a competitive Mid-range Ventrue vote-bleed deck. What do you think about Seductions and Approximations in this deck? Will Bonding and Creepshow Casino help? Perfect Paragon is a great idea, btw! What about the Paragon then?

Also, we can discourage blocking by being able to fight better than just S:CE. Is this the way to go?

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