file Casual & tournament - Temptation of Greater Power

15 Dec 2014 12:00 #68186 by ReverendRevolver
Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....

Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.

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15 Dec 2014 12:20 - 15 Dec 2014 12:21 #68187 by Ankha

ReverendRevolver wrote: Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....

Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.

Much like you could play Succubus Club without abusing it.

You don't need to built a special deck to (ab)use it since it only requires a Justicar and some pool gain (say a Villein, or Parity Shift). The moment it hits the table, it completely unbalances the table*, even if you play it badly (a mistake I've done a few times).

* it's easy to make your prey lose all pool but 2 or 3.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 15 Dec 2014 12:21 by Ankha.

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15 Dec 2014 12:49 #68189 by ReverendRevolver

Ankha wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote: Wow, all this talk of TogP in finals.... thats what Ive done wrong all this time.....

Ive never seen it abused like is mentioned here, I think ive stolen blockers more with from a sinking ship that Ivr seen TogP used to full affect. Doesnt matter, since Ive never seen a deck built just to fully utilize (by which I mean abuse) TogP.

Much like you could play Succubus Club without abusing it.

You don't need to built a special deck to (ab)use it since it only requires a Justicar and some pool gain (say a Villein, or Parity Shift). The moment it hits the table, it completely unbalances the table*, even if you play it badly (a mistake I've done a few times).

* it's easy to make your prey lose all pool but 2 or 3.


Ive cut it into some lawfirm type stuff and an old cock robim deck, but Its never came up at a good time. Now, in a deck better at bloating ( I run 3 p shift at most in many decks, mostly due to not being a "dedicated" vote deck in prince decks) I could see its stupidness.

With all the super good Justicars around, and the addition of a new one, TogP is super playable, has a huge effect, and if you play it, you probably have a way to pay better than someone else.

But Im always cautious about "Ban this now!" Reactions. Remember turbo parity shift? That deck just got anpther 6 cap with obf, but the p-shift under the axe talks stopped ages ago, so i doubt we will hear much of it.

Only being stoppable by diamond thunderbolt or a master canceler is rough too, though. No cap restriction is kinda nuts, and victor pelletier can play it fast, so the potenential for it becoming "the" problem card has existed for years, but its not something everyone has been screwed by.

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15 Dec 2014 15:23 - 15 Dec 2014 15:29 #68195 by Otso
I’ve had quite a few experiences with ToGP and to summarize: every single time it has been succesfully played (no suddens) it has changed the face of the game completely. Some experiences from tournament settings:

- EC 2014 Day 2 I played ToGP on my predator’s Anson he had just brought out. He kept the guy but it cost him 17 or so pool. With a stealth-bleed predator he was hard-pressed to do anything meaningful in the game (but managed to survive for quite some time). The table finally times out with me, his original prey, and his original predator left on the table.
- Swedish Nationals 2012 I had a decent table lock-down with weenie Auspex. Then Randy, my prey, plays ToGP on Victoria with Vessel, The Rack, and Magnum, Victoria goes to my predator Robert, IIRC, for ten-ish pool. I oust Randy but my crosstable buddy Henrik gets the GW.
- Ropecon 2010 I play ToGP on my predator’s full Mistress Fanchon and get her for 17ish pool. Worth every drop! I win the game.
- Ropecon 2014 During the heads-up, my predator announces ToGP on my Lutz I just brought out. Should the card resolve, he wins the game hands down. Then we notice his Dmitra has Derange, and he has no other justicar. Next turn I Villein Lutz and ToGP Dmitra. I win the game.
- Ropecon 2014 I play big caps with no combat defense and I end up with a potence rush prey – so I’m basically toast, right? With something absurd, like 1st turn Zillah’s Valley and 2nd turn Jake and 3rd turn Villein & ToGP on my prey’s Volker puts him on an unwinnable position. I get 1,5 VPs, and my prey 0, of course.
- Ropecon 2012 finals I know that my cross-table buddy Michael plays ToGP in his Unmada-Lutz-Dmitra-Undele vote deck (at least I assume so). So I want to keep him on a short leash and let his Lasombra stealth bleed predator bleed him by not rushing his minons. A lot of things happen, but the result: Michael has hard time bringing out enough vampires to pressure his prey, Randy, who ends up getting the GW. And ToGP was part of the game even though it never got played.

There might be some minor inaccuracies in the descriptions, but the bottom line is: I think this card unbalances the table in such a way that if it doesn’t lead to the player playing it winning the game, at least it causes the player it’s played on to lose the game. It’s ridiculously hard to play around – basically suddens or destroying all justicars the round they come out. It has such an enormous impact on the table balance I feel no one card should have.
Last edit: 15 Dec 2014 15:29 by Otso.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, extrala, Jussi, Pendargon, Ke.

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08 Jan 2015 11:56 - 08 Jan 2015 11:57 #68541 by Ankha
Yesterday's game (I was just spectating).
A Gangrel royalty plays ToGP on the main vampire controlled by his predator (I think it was Lutz). After paying the pool, Gangrel is a 11 pool, with a contest of Stanislava with his own prey, Lutz at 11 too.
Auction ends with the Lutz player paying 15 (with the credit), and being ousted the turn right after.
Without Lutz, his game would also have been over.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 08 Jan 2015 11:57 by Ankha.

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08 Jan 2015 15:18 #68547 by Ezra
*Mon anglais etant pas terrible, si tu pouvais traduire ca serait cool*

C'etait moi qui jouait MarisLutz et qui a pris TOGP sur Maris Streck.
J'avais Maris Streck full blood et Adana de Sforza a 0 blood. TOGP sur Maris Streck, que je payes 15. Je decides de payer, d'une parceque j'ai 3 Parity Shift en main, de deux parceque si ma proie recupere Maris Streck ma game est foutue.

Maxime Socroun, 3200321

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