Card idea: The Sweeper (Vampire)

Lech wrote:

It should be up to 3. It should be hunt action.

Why do you think it "should"? I thought about it but an exact 3 is more like Trochomancy. On the other hand, it can be very hard to empty any Methuselah's ash heap because you can't do anything if there's 1 or 2 cards left. So maybe up to 3 would be interesting indeed.
Making it a hunt action is too strong IMHO, first of all because you can do it while empty. Plus there are a lot of cards interacting with hunts. Or it would require a clause like Kyoko's ("Kyoko cannot hunt as normal.")

Xaddam wrote:

Recursion is a strong mechanic. This special totally shuts down the recursion of any methuselah. To almost completely shut down a strong mechanic with a cap 4 is too good of a special.

If you dislike recursion mechanics and would like a card to counter it you can't make it too strong unless you want to remove recursion completely. Removing any mechanic completely impairs creativity, which I think we agree on is a bad thing.

Some could argue that recursion are bad mechanics Anyway, would you include a 4 cap vampire in your crypt that doesn't match your disciplines just to disable other's Methuselahs recursion? I think not, you wouldn't be sure to draw it in your crypt, it costs influence and blood instead of bringing a "real" vampire, and you wouldn't be sure to make his special work.
Unless you play !Nosferatu, in which case his special is just fine.
Think about Keller Thiel

Keller Thiel
Clan: Malkavian (group 5)
Capacity: 4
Disciplines: aus dem
Camarilla: While Keller is ready and untapped, any minion who successfully bleeds you burns 1 blood or life.

Great vampire, if I could i would play it in all my decks. But I can't afford it.

Xaddam wrote:

Make this vampire a cap 10 or something and add some fun disciplines (including fortitude) and you could make an archetype which is strong against recursion but is limited to that vampire's disciplines (and possibly some other drawback).

What archetype? The kind where you have only 1 vampire to support your ousting strategy, and no card that works with it? Why would anyone play a 10 cap that no other vampire or card can support?

Xaddam wrote:

And as someone already pointed out, decrease intercept is only a drawback if you intend to block. Likely, you'll be wanting to do actions with a vampire with superior OBF so he'll be tapped and if you want to block with wakes you'll do it with another vampire.

Basically, -1 intercept was to counterbalance its superior discipline. I think it's a big drawback as I explained earlier.

Izaak wrote:

I like the idea. It should be 3 cards at random so it doesn't completely shut down card recursion.

Maybe. The key would then be to get him out first.

Non-existant user wrote:

The 2 specials do not have to belong to the same card. I am not a big fan of the winning condition being on a vampire: it opens much less options than if it was on a library card.

I'm against because:
- either the library card allows to remove cards in the ash heap. It would be very kilely that many more players would play it because it "kills" recursion.
- or the library card creates a condition when a Methuselah's ash heap is empty. This is very unlikely to happen because Trochomancy and the Sweeper are the only cards I can think of that empty the ash heap. The card wouldn't be played, or at least not much more than if The Sweeper is played.

Putting the two conditions on the same vampire will draw a big target on him. A little vampire that needs protection from other big vampires -- I like it.

Xaddam wrote:

This The Sweeper would have lots of uses, first that comes to mind is as a voter. Think of him in conjunction with Lutz.
Please explain, because I don't see why him over any other vampire would be chosen to play a voter role? There are already a lot of cheap guys with OBF, and having a 5-cap with Presence seems way better than a vampire whose special has nothing to do with voting.

Also, lots of star vampire decks include small minions with obf.

Indeed, but they're used:
- to remove a Pentex on the star vampire
- to block rushes
The Sweeper won't block any rush directed at your star vampire due to its -1 intercept. Furthermore, he may himself become the more pressing target of a rush.

Xaddam wrote:

Oh, sorry, I never stated a big assumption in my reasoning. The pool damage is not a "new ousting strategy". A deck with recursion will discard more than 3 cards each turn (liquidation)

You won't oust that kind of deck, but removing cards from the recursion is still a good thing.

Xaddam wrote:

and against a deck without recursion the action to remove 3 cards is not worth it even if it actually managed to remove all cards from the ash heap

Yes it is, because you gain 1 blood anyway. Army of Rats, Contagion, etc. are not ousting strategies neither, but they help a lot in fact, despite the fact it's only a 1 pool loss.

Xaddam wrote:

Obviously this 10-cap vampire would need some through-put discipline, like presence, dominate or dementation, and that would be its primary ousting strategy.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not designing a 10-cap with dominate and obfuscate, what is the link with my initial proposition?

Xaddam wrote:

I'm done with my points. If you feel like finding some strong arguments among what I said I implore you to read them again, because right now you're attacking a straw man and you're being hostile. I said what I feel about the card in question and the mechanics of its special.

Funny how people imagine hostily behind a lack of smileys
Or is it using "hell" in the sentence, which is quite natural for a Baali follow?

Oh, I forgot the soothing smiley