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file juggernaut <3s his combat

20 Mar 2012 13:01 - 20 Mar 2012 13:02 #26287 by Boris The Blade
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat
Bury and Ransom are not bad ideas, although Ransom should probably cost a pool. Unblockable crosstable rescues are more a glitch of the system than a feature, so providing a tool against them cannot hurt. And giving :pot: anything that is not I HIT YOU WITH MY BIG FIST! goes in the right direction too. :pot: needs some variety compared to other combat disciplines.
Last edit: 20 Mar 2012 13:02 by Boris The Blade.

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20 Mar 2012 13:18 - 20 Mar 2012 13:33 #26288 by Surreal
Replied by Surreal on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat

This is where our opinions are very different. I don't think combat should just be a means. Stealth is a means to make your actions successful. Intercept is a means to stop others actions. Bleeding is an end. Voting is an end. I don't see why combat should relegated only to a means and not to an end.


I think that is where your understanding of the game differs a lot from other players. You can't just say that this vote deck and this bleed deck. It is not that simple. I would divide deck to five different parts you have to take care of when building a deck:

1. Oust: Vote, Bleed, little Combat

2. Means to Deliver oust: Combat, Stealth, Vote push, Tapping (Pentex & Misdirection)

3. Control: Combat, Banishment, Ally/location steal, Intercept with combat, Marionette etc.

4. Defense: Combat, Bounce, Intercept, Bloating, Unmasking

5. Building up: Taste of Vitae, Voter Captivation, Masters, Govern/enchant down, Equiptment

When you look it like that combat is very strong with some parts. It is not strong with ousting and it should not be. Like bleeding should not be strong with control aspects. You have to think what your deck is good at when building it. If you just focus on oust aspect you are sacrificing other parts. Like DEM weenie has almost 0 control and that makes them lose some games. If you would give combat more ousting power it would be very strong with all those 5 parts so it doesn't make sense.

What should be maybe done is make combat better as delivery mechanism + some other parts. Now packing just stealth can be more efficient. But also you can't use stealth as control, combat is best at it.

You say also that combat doesn't win games. I totally disagree with this. Combat wins plenty of games (just look TWDA) but not when it is used as oust mechanism. Combat works great when used as different part of deck. For you combat should be oust mechanism also. I don't see sense with that. By doing that there would little sense playing anything other than combat. I feel game is fairly well balanced now.

EDIT Changed 5. Blood management to 5. Building up
Last edit: 20 Mar 2012 13:33 by Surreal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ankha

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20 Mar 2012 13:26 - 20 Mar 2012 13:27 #26289 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat

I never said that.

It is a summary of what your position seems to be based on your posts. It is the impression I get from reading your posts.

Well, reread my posts then. Your summary is plain wrong.

Combat is a means, not an end.

This is where our opinions are very different. I don't think combat should just be a means. Stealth is a means to make your actions successful. Intercept is a means to stop others actions. Bleeding is an end. Voting is an end. I don't see why combat should relegated only to a means and not to an end.

Because it has been so for 15 years and the game is pretty balanced. I like the current game experience, I don't want to play to a game where combat is more important.

Why is it a "tragedy"? Why would it be better the other way?
I think that if combat was preponderent, V:TES would look like UFS . There would be no room for vote, bleed stealth or other strategies.

Why would there be nothing but combat? Plenty of cards already ensure that a combat won't occur. And already Combat Defence is far stronger than Combat Offence (S:CE. :for: and :pro: already nerf most offensive combat).

Stronger? Combat defence requires less cards, but doesn't change the state of the game (vampires remains ready). Combat offence requires more card, but can dramatically alter the game state. It's good like that.

I prefer to adjust myself to the game and build deck that wins, rather than daydreaming about combat and try to adjust the game to my desires.

  1. Is there no room for changing the game?
  2. You want the status quo to remain?
  3. There should be no new paths to win VPs?
  4. Combat should not play an affirmative role in that?
  5. I think VTES has the capacity to change, and keep changing and combat should have a role in that considering it is one of the three major interactions possible between vampires.

  1. Yes, but not a major change.
  2. I want to play V:TES, not another game. If it requires the game not to change, it's fine (we're far from exhausting the existing possibilities and game experiences)
  3. There could be, as long they don't disrupt the game too much
  4. No.
  5. It can change, but I don't want it to change the way you'd like. If you want to play a game where combat is more important, there are alternative formats for that.
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Last edit: 20 Mar 2012 13:27 by Ankha.

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20 Mar 2012 16:37 #26298 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat

It's a shame that First Strike isn't the "first strike" but instead the 3rd Strike. It's not a major part of the game (only a few cards have it) but its fairly useless anyway, you often get better mileage out of additional strikes.


I agree with this, although technically First Strike comes second in the order of resolution.

It would be nice for there to be another way around Combat Ends besides (yawn) IG or superior Psyche! Also dodges would be more important since they would still cancel the effect of a strike made with First Strike. It makes sense that you could strike faster than the other vampire could activate their combat ends power.

Like you, I wonder why they even bothered designing all those combat cards when the cards don't directly help you win. But I guess the game can't change to make combat more important.

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20 Mar 2012 17:25 #26301 by Surreal
Replied by Surreal on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat

Like you, I wonder why they even bothered designing all those combat cards when the cards don't directly help you win. But I guess the game can't change to make combat more important.


I feel it is bit of marketing decision because many players like playing just rush combat or other combat decks. Cool assassin vampire riding sport bike with leather jacket and AK-47 sounds appealing for some players. But Vtes is not about that. There are better card games if you want to focus on fighting more but combat still is part of Vtes.

Mainly this kind of discussion comes because players see combat different ways. Maybe the question should be: What kind of role you think combat has in Vtes? I would want to see combat part of Vtes but not focused on. You say combat cards don't directly help you win. Does stealth make you directly win? Nope but it and combat also can sure help.
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20 Mar 2012 20:07 - 20 Mar 2012 20:09 #26308 by Izaak
Replied by Izaak on topic Re: juggernaut <3s his combat

Honestly, it's because players who think like Izaak, Ankha and Drain seem to want combat to mostly be 'ultra-defensive'.


Even though I'm not too interested in furthering the fruitless discussion we've been having on the topic of combat I would prefer that you either quote me directly or paraphrase me correctly without putting words in my mouth.

Again, your entire logic and argumentation is based on the assumption that combat is weak. Since that assumption is false from the start, everything else you enter into the discussion is flawed at best.

Some clans are weak, fine. Everyone agrees here. Making combat better will not make these clans stronger. It will make the clans/decks that are already good with combat better. Which will turn Vampire: The Eternal Struggle into Vampire The Eternal Obliteration.
Last edit: 20 Mar 2012 20:09 by Izaak.

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