Powering up Laibon, Orun and Aye

Umberling wrote:

Well, for starters, I think the first step would be to change the Laibon trait. For instance, let's make just a quick addition :

When a Laibon comes out of an influence area, you may put an Aye or Orun from your hand, library or ash heap on this Laibon.

This is ok idea but I don't feel the end result would be the best. I don't think Aye&Orun would be played so much more, instead there just would be 2x Orun or Aye in a deck. It is super easy to get Aye&Orun with that mechanism so it would be too easy just include 2x Orun to deck (or Aye if you face lot of freanzy cards). I still think Aye&Orun decks wouldn't be played much more with that rule change. Normal Nana Buruku deck would always include 1x Orun to stop some Mind Rapes/Banishment because there would be practically no penalty to include 1xOrun.

EDIT
In Aye&Orun it is the core of mechanism which doesn't work. Aye&Orun as master phase actions is too slow and will dilute the deck too much.

While I agree that Aye and Orun are simply unworking, there's much to do to fix the mechanism without reprinting the cards. We've all got our shitloads of wallpaper Ayes, it's kind of sad to leave these cards unused forever.

This is ok idea but I don't feel the end result would be the best. I don't think Aye&Orun would be played so much more, instead there just would be 2x Orun or Aye in a deck. It is super easy to get Aye&Orun with that mechanism so it would be too easy just include 2x Orun to deck (or Aye if you face lot of freanzy cards). I still think Aye&Orun decks wouldn't be played much more with that rule change.

I agree the rule change would cause this kind of change and I foresaw it. However, it would only be an incentive. We could design cards that require less Aye/Orun to work at a competitive level. While not entirely satisfying, this design could significantly improve both Laibon (for all this Frenzy/banishment stuff) and the mechanism.

I feel kind of sad about this mechanism, because it was flawed from the start and even though it got signifiant improvement, it never achieved competitive play. The Imbued's card-stacking mechanism is a tad too strong, the Aye/orun is simply bad and the Maleficia/striga repeats the same error -- sorry LSJ if you read all this ranting --, though the three of them provide a distinct feeling when played.

So, if Aye/Orun should be made better, we should find a way to make Aye and Orun be smoother and less resource-consuming for nothing.

It could be achieved through:
- Facilitating the way the mechanism works, with, for instance, cards that allow fetching Aye/Orun that purge the library. Still doesn't fix the clogging issue.
- Creating cards that require less A/O for significant effects. Or give incentives (Brutal Influence/Exile wield nice power)
- Altering the rules of Laibon, Aye and Orun (problem is, we can't reprint and rewriting of cards should be avoided if possible.

As someone stated before, a simple rule mimicking the imbued one should be cool.

"During your untap phase you may move one Aye or one Orun from your ash heap to each ready laibon you control".

Since a lot of action make you burn the aye/orun, you can get them back. And it does not depreciate other Aye/Orun fetching cards or vampires.

Adding a simple line in the rulebook is easy. It's simple to remember and elegant.

Remember how the infernal trait was successfully fixed to make the baali more playable ? We can do the same without touching any already printed card.

The addition is quite interesting but should be tested for it might be slightly overpowered; though still clogging as hell, the recursion would allow for some heavy action and global carelessness of how the Aye and Orun burn.

And I'm already feeling Nana would become the Laibon Anson - already is, in some way. "Parthenon, Orun, Liquidation, Ashur tablets. Okay, I can start acting now."

Both the Imbued suggestion and the Anarch Convert suggestion would work. If and when the VEKN designs a set for the Laibon, I hope they remember to playtest both options.

I think the two biggest issues for Aye & Orun is that 1) its a MPA, even as a trifle that's a hefty cost as there's so much stronger competition, and 2) the Aye & Orun cards that work with it are transient one-off effects.

I will say that I do dig the alternate discipline effects if you have Aye/Orun, a la Invoke Poison Glands. The other templates where the superior requires Aye/Orun I'm not so hot on; it tends to upset people who are not going to play Aye/Orun.

Anyway, I think there should be more permanents for Aye/Orun to key off of and a way to get it away from MPA costs. Let me brainstorm examples (I could care less about balance right now; I want to explore ideas and card templates):

Follow the Past's Footsteps
Master
Put this card in play. Any Laibon vampire may take an undirected action to take an Aye or Orun from any Methuselah's ash heap and place it upon themselves. Once per turn a younger Laibon may re-attempt an action already attempted by an older vampire (regardless whether it was successful or not).


(The template is finding aye/orun w/o MPA. but i made it undirected w/o stealth so it's not easy. however, it's attemptable by other meth's laibons, too. maybe too many penalties... the latter effect is an attempt to simulate Massassi's Honor and a respect for elders theme, coincides w/ card name.)

Community Standing
Action
+1 stealth
Put this card in play. Laibon may tap an Aye during a hunt action to gain +1 stealth and an additional blood if successful. Laibon may tap an Orun after a successful vote to untap. Any titled vampire may call a referendum to destroy this card at +1 stealth.

(a table permanent reason to bother with aye/orun. other templates could be aye or orun specific, with a secondary sect benefit.)

Inspired Guidance
Action
2 blood
+2 stealth
Requires a Laibon. Search your library or ash heap for an Aye or an Orun and put that card on this Laibon. Or, untap an older Laibon. Untap at the end of the turn.

(again, a template avoiding MPAs. however i think i again overcosted from caution as MPAs are really valuable. the latter effect is card name flavor, and an improvement on Sires Command Children Inherit. edited to allow end of turn untap to both effects)

Patience
Equipment
A vampire may only have one Patience. If this vampire was untapped during your untap phase, it gains one blood. Tap this card if you have 3 or more Orun to get +2 intercept. Burn this card instead of when you would otherwise burn an Orun.

(first, something for everybody. second, something worthwhile for reaching 3 orun. and third, an orun saver. also, it burns too quickly for Brutal Influence decks, so it's more orun thematic in its aloofness.)

Humane
Equipment
A vampire may only have one Humane. If this vampire was tapped during your untap phase, on its first action this turn monsters have -2 intercept . Tap this card if you have 3 or more Aye to reduce the cost of a card by 1 blood. Burn this card instead of when you would otherwise burn an Aye.

(I like the template, and I wanted symmetry -- and that's about it. i scrambled my brain for thematic effects, but they each became more powerful than the last. stuff like "tap this card... for a wake." or "tap this card... to borrow an ally for a turn." i just need to stop and not worry about balance because it's all about the template.)

remember, i care about the core weaknesses and am interested in card template design. don't get focused on the powers now!