Champions of Cagn Unbound!

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

20. Flower of Death: Blur but for melee combat only... Or I could pack Blur just so I can have a few guns around if I want.

It's actually quite good design Juggernaut. I would play some in my deck, and making celerity solid for melee weapons/hand strikes is appreciated. There are bunch of useless cards in the set, but it isn't one.

Lech wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

20. Flower of Death: Blur but for melee combat only... Or I could pack Blur just so I can have a few guns around if I want.

It's actually quite good design Juggernaut. I would play some in my deck, and making celerity solid for melee weapons/hand strikes is appreciated. There are bunch of useless cards in the set, but it isn't one.

Not useless Lech. Boring. It's just Blur Mk 2. That's not inspiring. It's like choosing between Meat Cleaver and Bastard Sword.

Brum wrote:

From what I gathered of their own communication they weren't eject. They quit.

Nope. Jeff Kuta was fired. Then Eric and Carl quit as a publicity stunt.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Lech wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

20. Flower of Death: Blur but for melee combat only... Or I could pack Blur just so I can have a few guns around if I want.

It's actually quite good design Juggernaut. I would play some in my deck, and making celerity solid for melee weapons/hand strikes is appreciated. There are bunch of useless cards in the set, but it isn't one.

Not useless Lech. Boring. It's just Blur Mk 2. That's not inspiring. It's like choosing between Meat Cleaver and Bastard Sword.

There are 23 different prevent cards. Tons of intercept and stealth. Yet nobody calls them boring. Both Meat Cleaver and Bastard Sword are useless and work exactly the same. Flower of Death don't work exactly like Blur, and both of them are playable in correct decks.

Lambach wrote:

Not sure why you feel the big caps are "baited" here.

Because, as you are so carefully showing again and again... these cards seem to have tricked you into thinking that this Aye/Orun Tech actually speeds up the delivery. It doesn't. None of them get you a minion out and ready to go in basically its first minion phase. Anarch Convert did that, so did Twilight Camp and that's why Anarch Tech saw a surge in use.

Disagree about the vamps but whatever. You're entitled to your opinion.

Let me dissect them a bit more clinically then...

1) Terehasa: Sure, smallcap, expected sorts of disciplines.
2) Diata: Setup for ANI FOR rush, then restrict the deck to Non-Laibons just because it seems the designers are worried about creating an ANI FOR rush weenie... when that's exactly what they made.
3) Obimpe Obeng: It either an Anarch OR a Ravnos OR a Gangrel... But its a 4cap of each of those clans with some out of clan stuff you can't really use and isn't really shared.
4) Kwabena-Kweku: You konw what a combat clan needs? Stealth-bleeders. And we'll confirm that Aye is too slow by making a blood option as well. (+1 point for Aye/Orun isn't strong enough)
5) Heshimu: Price = Lambachs, Strength = Lambach, Disciplines = Basically has CEL-FOR instead of DOM pre, Title = None. Compared to Lambach, he's crap.
6) Heshimu ADV: Gains [obf]... there's a 1 point kicker right? An Elder that can't Elder Impersonate with their Obfuscate. Gains a built-in Canine Horde for 1 blood cost... which is a maybe useful effect. +1 intercept, which would be golden with No Secrets from the Magaji. Oh and apparently increasing a capacity stops him from being a golden god of Aggravated Combat. MERGED: Loses all the cool stuff and gets a contestable title. Nobody should merge this vampire. EVER.
7) Ikoko: 3 cap with ABO. Nice enough, most crypts need weenie fillers like this.
8) Shambe: Let's make it work as a Tzimisce!!! It doesn't mesh with more than one other minion in the set and both have [vic]. So it can't unless you play it will real Tzimisce, and then why aren't you using a REAL Tzimisce who probably comes with Auspex?? Magaji on a 6cap is nice. Text is designed to combat neuter a combative clan????? What are you thinking?????
9) Foluke: It's a Gangrel!! Yay!! Plus it gets some stuff about cards being cheap if you play lots of other cards to dilute your combat... MAYBE you get a free Body Flare once every second game.
10) Kosoko: Potence and Vic out of clan... There are 2 other vampires with any potence (both inferior) and two with any Vicissitude (only one superior and not this minion). The +1 strength is nice but the No Blood Hunts part only seems worth it if you're going to make him Eat The World... and those things don't win in general anymore.
11) Hekima: Kholo... dud title. 2 Votes would be better. Magaji would be astoundingly better. Out of clan QUI. Why? One other minion has any Quietus. It's another 11 cap. Are there other redeeming qualities??... A built in Camera Phone (Notice there are about 4 Camera Phone effects in the Library cards and now 1 in the Vampires on an 11 CAP VAMPIRE...) Redeeming qualities?? +2 strength I suppose... but it's an 11 CAP. Unless I get an Anti-JOL Shuffle I am never getting this minion to act before turn 4 and MAYBE he'll have an Aye/Orun then. He's not good, not good at all.
12) Nkrumah: So we will make a Guru-nanse vampire. Call it a Guruhi, give it 2 Akunanse Disciplines and 2 Guruhi disciplines and throw on a special in an attempt to push Aye/Orun out faster. It's not really worth it. If he was a Clan 4 with that special I'd be interested. At the moment, he's an Akunanse without multi-acting or a Guruhi without bleed/Majesty.
13) Lutalo: Clan 6. Not interesting, not crap. There's a change from the norm of them being mostly crap.
14) Chisisi: Superior Protean... there is ONE other Guruhi with any protean and that Sobayifu... possibly the most USELESS Guruhi of them all. Disciplines like an Anarch with... A TITLE! WOOHOOO. This minion probably 7 times out of 10 will be Lutalo but costing 1 pool more.
15) Oluway-Seyi: G3, POT, OBT, pre... this sounds like the skill set of a certain group of Sabbat Lasombra in G23... So, is the ANI & Maneuver meant to make the OBT suddenly more punch? Or have we made another minion that could maybe join Mr Potato-head and Friends?? The thing here is the grouping mostly. But other than Oluway being a fake Lasombra, he doesn't have many friends in his own grouping... just Batsheva (who hates EVERYBODY) and Iniko. Oh and the "Orun" text comes with a blood option, so you never have to use Oruns...
16) Hembadoon: Aus, Cel and Obf out of clan. The Aus gives him two possible friends Fode Kouruma (5cap) and Lucian the Perfect Bleeder (11 cap). The Cel gives him two possible friends...Iniko (9cap) and Ngozi (9cap). The Obf gives him THREE friends Aren (7cap) Nangila (9cap) and Lucian the Perfect Bleeder (11 cap). So, if you're planning to use the out of clan disciplines, you're best bet seems to be with Fode & Lucian because then you get a "Govern chain" using Founders of the Ebony Kingdom. Otherwise he's a vampire with clan disciplines and a funny special allowing him to play Parity Shifts other people have used (or maybe some other random cards...) but has no title and a +1 bleed. So uninspiring really. Not really a voter, not really a bleeder, not really an anything. Another vampire with too-many things that are not focussed enough to make a good vampire. Oh and he's 10 pool for all of that scattered uselessness.
17) Eze Advanced: Eze (from Lore) is the Demon Prince because he freaks the unliving fudge out of the vampires of the Ebony Kingdom. He's a big mother-flipping nasty dude with a whopping Presence who plays up an act for the crowd to make them think he's the super-colossal bad-ass of Africa. So a Demon-fetching ability seems like "We read the name and made stuff up." Also, what pressing need do the Guruhi have for Demons? Which demons can't they get that will help them? Otherwise if you're stupid enough to merge him, please take your ticket to get on the short-yellow-bus-of-VTES.
18) Tegene: +1 intercept against Ventrue... seems like this is the second of Third Anti-Lawfirm card. The Chi is useless. Nobody else in the whole clan has it. And if you're going to try merge it with Ravnos, then the POT is useless and so is the pre (unless you are going for the Anarch Ravnos who can use Undue Influence multiple ways). Generally pretty boring.
19) Ajani: Apparently the Guruhi need enforcers... because Animalism doesn't cut it for combat. POT FOR and a special related to dunking. I'll give it one bit of credit... it's at least focussed. Fortitude is also used by other member of the clan and that's a 10cap who has inferior fortitude. No deck around those two. So that makes it a bad Gangrel with Pre and Pot or a bad Guruhi with Fortitude. So either way it's bad.
20) Mbatainy: Mbatainy was DESIGNED to use Pledge Sword. It's about the only reason I can see you making this vampire text OR Pledge Sword. Plus with the Auspex you MIGHT go for a Rush using Nose of the Hound... but it's an 8cap who can't multirush and needs cards to do any rushing. So not brilliant. Reeks of trying to make a two-card combo instead of a Good Minion and a Good Weapon.
21) Gyasi: 10cap, +2 Str, CEL and Vic. He can get 1 vote, just one, from this 'splendid Orun Tech'. Well at least it might make sense of some of the other Celerity but again all of the Celerity Guruhi are all large. This is another one. So you're basically paying +2 pool to get two not particularly useful disciplines and a low-effect special.
22) Malkia: Kholo = useless, two not particularly effective inferior disciplines, FOR which does not have many others vampires that are useful with it. He gains a Quentin-Text, +1 bleed, +1 intercept. So is it a voter? A bleeder? A blocker? It doesn't have the disciplines for blocking... It doesn't really have any bleed delivery... So you're paying 11pool again for a vampire with no single purpose.
23) Haben: Weenie-Fortitude minion. Suppose so. Not brilliant, not terrible.
24) Ghayela: An Assamite Politician without OBF. A Brujah without Potence. While it's an Ishtarri, why are we paying the extra pool for QUI? So we can match him with Ubende? So we can match him with Badriya... an 11cap?
25) Hafidha: A friend for Jibade... who is never used for his DEM. Some special using 1 of each Aye and Orun... which will probably never get used. It also doesn't do anything particularly amazing, it again spreads a minion too thin.
26) Efunsetan: *Gasps* An Ishtarri that seems to be focussed... it bleeds. Like lots of other Ishtarri do and it does it well. A title... ANI... those are good to have on a 9cap...
27) Badriya: Another political Assamite Scholar in the wrong clan. CEL QUI THA, the cornerstones of Assamite Wizards. CEL QUI PRE the political Assamites. Some text equivalent to an Evil Eye... So, it's not meant to be a bleeder (no delivery mechanism). It's not meant to be a blocker. It might be meant to be a Fighter, but any chump with an intercept location can stymy this vampire all week. 10 cap... meh. Too spread, no focus, no inspiration...
28) Badriya ADV: Nobody should consider merging this minion. Plus, he helps everyone else get his votes off but himself. So yeah, kind of useless. You basically spend 11 pool to get a permanent copy of Psychic Veil for Political Actions... and 2 votes. Oh and Chimerstry... Bleh.
29) Rukiya: Give him a gun or a weapon and rush people.
30) Baldwin: Baldwin exists to penalise MMPA decks.
31) Irawagbon: Combat special, Obfuscate... these clearly mesh wonderfully... that inferior presence is going to help ousting too...
32) Belaynesh: Ser and Nec. That's worked brilliantly for the G2 Settites. They use those disciplines SOOOO often at the same time. Well an interesting hunt action isn't too bad... except no real way to deliver it.
33) Omorede: Pulling Strings/Elder Kindred Network built in. A contestable title. PRO SER... and +1 stealth. So you're buying a big vampire you want to vote with who has an EASILY contested title AND his secondary disciplines don't defend well. Sure you can do a little delivery, but PRO & SER allow you to... Hatch the Viper???
34) Abidugun: A Brujah with AUS. Not particularly interesting really. Oh and some stuff about Lasombra.
35) Tedros: What the HECK are you supposed to do with this Osebo. ANI. AUS. CEL. pot. I meant the bonus transfers are kinda nice... but is that all you are bringing it out for?
36) Olateju: A friend for Menele. Or a friend for the Tre w/ CEL. Why are you using an equipment special on this minion??? It seems like it was grafted on because... well the vampire wasn't up to Create-a-Clan Points total. Could have been interesting, turns out to be kinda pointless.
37) Chikumbu: Disciplines like an Anarch. Got a text that reeks of Salubri. I'd have traded the inferiors and the +1 damage to give him VAL... AUS CEL POT VAL... now THERE is a golden god of combat...
38) Jelani: Text seems to be badly worded. "During an action, Jelani may tap an Aye to give a minion -1 intercept". +1 bleed... What are the ani and pro there for except to somehow merge him into some kind of Gangrel thing using ANI FOR PRO... Again another minion that doesn't seem to really fit into their own clan, so we'll just make them fit into other clans instead and call them innovative.
39) Jelani ADV: So, we can't think of a new idea, so we'll copy the other special. Give him a useful title and a level of protean. Not earth shattering, not terrible. THEN you merge him and he's crap.
40) Shimenege: Inferior Aus weenie is okay...
41) Boahinmaa: Inf Qui because it is so commonly used on that other golden god of the Osebo... Massassi. People always use that Quietus. And Abombwe. THERE'S A MOMENT OF GENIUS... give it something else that won't really help.
42) Mpumelele: Magaji is a plus. Inferior dominate is nice enough. Sure, the text is nice. The Necromancy is... useless. Necromancy has very few good tools and the Giovanni got almost anything worth using, unless you're going to do some kind of Shambler deck.
43) Olapa: AUS CEL POT QUI VIC... Okay. He's supposed to do combat. So here comes the golden god rush or even better some kind of other combat AWESOME like a way to prevent damage OR immunity to Grapples... OR.... Oh, +1 bleed. And an inferior Torn Signpost built in... it could just read +1 strength.
44) Goredema: Kholo = worthless title. +1 intercept, +2 strength. This is feeling like an Osebo to rival Cesewayo... vic ABO SER... *sighs* All good up until that point where you realise you're never going to use 5 points of disciplines on an 11 cap.
45) Spiritual Vessel: Aye Convert or Orun Convert... considering the problem where you need 2 or 3 Aye or Orun to make most of the tech work... and so one Aye/Orun for 1 pool + 1 TP is kind of terrible.
46)-End) The Interlopers aren't much. Not pushing any new angles, not making a deck type suddenly jump up tiers.

I think we get it, Juggernaut1981 - you really hate this set.

As I don't care enough about e-sets to study them to the level some of you have, I can't really rate the set.

But, there are a couple of things that come to mind about general card design from someone who has playtested half a dozen CCGs, has specific card design credits, has been on a card design team for a published CCG, and who has been added to the game credits for another CCG for activities including design, development, and playtesting.

1. Designing a single card isn't hard.
2. Designing a set is very hard and takes more skills than designing a few cards.
3. Not every card is intended for every player, something Magic's lead designer mentions frequently.
4. Most card ideas are bad. I've been tasked with going through a player submitted file of card ideas in preparation of designing a CCG set before. Tons of ideas, 90%+ sucked.
5. Many of the bad card ideas have some element that isn't bad.
6. There are many ways to design the same card. And, whether doing top-down or bottom-up design, many, many times people will come up with the same idea, so there's little point to the concept of "This is my brilliant idea, the rest of you don't steal it."
7. You don't know how cards play until you actually play them, no matter how much of a genius I am.

There are side issues with a set like this because of the PCK drama, as people have pointed out. But, I would also say there are unrealistic expectations. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Ebony Kingdoms, a god awful set that might be used for comparison, is better than this set. But, the nature of so many comments not just here but in other threads is of the "you should have done a lot better" type, when I could say the same thing about most of the WotC and WW sets.