Kindred of the East

Ankha wrote:

When I read this, I think Chi should be replaced by blood. It may be less exotic, but since it is strictly the same, it would be more simple... Unless you want them to be restricted by Chanjelin Ward, Tenebrous Form etc.

This has to be tested, but it might be mandatory to make disciplines work. I guess one of the reasons behind the Conviction system is that the Imbued cannot hunt and play blood gain masters, so they cannot afford to pay cards with their life. If the Kuei-Jin are to play discipline cards, you want Giant's Blood, the Coven and Perfectionnist to work on them.

Loved this set since I first saw it on Lasombra's site all those years ago.

Could we see a larger version of the KotE Discipline symbols that you've created. Possibly along side the VtM Discipline that may turn into.

Shockwave wrote:

*Really* nervous concern:
Be especially careful about giving traditionally Clan-unique Disciplines to anyone else, especially more than one at a time. I'd be worried about a Dharma with THA/VIC for example, not just because of power levels per-se but also because it devalues the uniqueness of those Disciplines. I'd try & use the more general ones a bit more, although VIC is probably your only option for Flesh/Blood Shintai. This becomes increasingly more important when playing with Bloodline Disciplines such as MEL, VAL or THA.

That aside, it seems a lot more sensible, and a non-Gargoyle option with VIS would be really quite exciting.

EDIT: As an alternative, if you wanted to exaggerate the 'exotic' nature of the Kuei-Jin, you could ignore the above and pair up things like PRO/VAL, but make the more common, traditional, 'useful' Disciplines, such as OBF, AUS, DOM or FOR extremely rare or non-existent. This would make them very different, but force players to use very odd and new strategies, which would work.

DOUBLE EDIT: If you're ever going to hand out DAI, you need to consider Infernal, to represent Akuma. Just a comment.

Good points, all (and yes, Akuma = Infernal, no worries there. They don't have many unifying Disciplines beyond Hellweaving though; think of them as 'Infernal Pander' that you could splash into an existing deck).

So, if having too many bloodline/unique disciplines on the Kuei-Jin is problematic, we start to encounter the issue on effectively translating effects whilst still keeping a distinct flavour.

Let’s take the Devil-Tigers;

Black Wind provides the benefit of supernatural speed and savagery. Close enough to Celerity to make it a near-perfect fit.

Ghost-Flame Shintai provides the ability to conjure and control the elemental essence of flame. The closest simile is Thaumaturgy (Walk of Flame), but it’s a long bow to draw and we’re probably best to keep it distinct (particularly as there might be other Disciplines with a better overlap).

Demon Shintai allows the use to reshape their body into a eerie demonic form, complete with wings, spikes, tentacles and more. Vicissitude is a good fit (Horrid Form, Body Arsenal etc), but that’s also a great fit for Flesh Shintai (re-shaping flesh and twisting your image into horrifying forms), so let’s go with Protean instead; Eyes of the Beast, Wolf Claws, Mythic Form etc are all pretty demonic, after all.

Dragon Tears gives the user a third eye in the middle of their forehead that they can use to gain insights into a situation, but can also be trained on an unsuspecting victim and flay their soul away. In the RPG, Obeah and Valeran are said to be Saulot’s corrupted, half-complete version of Dragon Tears. If there’s such a clear match, both are good fits but we’re probably better to go with Valeran as it’s slightly more common (not belonging to a Scarce clan and all) and has a more martial aspect that fits with the theme of the Devil-Tigers.


In conclusion, it doesn’t take us long to start drifting into unique disciplines!

(Oh, and many Devil-Tigers like to learn Kiai as an out-of-clan Discipline, kind of like how G1 Toreador like their Dominate, or there are a few Giovanni for Fortitude. Kiai is a power that grants the ability to stun or injure your enemies with your voice alone. It is, essentially, Melpominee’s Death of the Drum with a few tweaks. Do we give them Melpominee and by doing so unlock the political cards in that Discipline to the Devil-Tigers?)

The other thing, of course, is that Kuei-Jin don’t have any canon method of speaking to animals, boosting their strength, etc. - indeed, the books make it clear that a Potence weenie is a slightly terrifying foe for Kuei-Jin as they don’t have the tools or experience to withstand such raw power. Giving Kuei-Jin access to ‘Finnish politics’ might make them too similar to their foes.

To think of it another way, Imbued levels of difference are bad, Laibon levels of similarity may be too close. Replacing bloodlines wholesale (Melpominee-based decks without a Daughter in sight, for example) bad, expanding crypt options good. Would players settle for two new Disciplines per Dharma? But, is it worth adding more new Disciplines at the expense of keeping existing bloodline disciplines special? Or, would players not mind
the use of bloodline disciplines as long as they were in non-traditional clan spreads (no Spiritus near Animalism/Presence, no Valeran near Auspex/Fortitude). This is stuff that literally keeps me up at night!

cheers
Disco Stu

glaswanderer wrote:

Loved this set since I first saw it on Lasombra's site all those years ago.

Could we see a larger version of the KotE Discipline symbols that you've created. Possibly along side the VtM Discipline that may turn into.

Hi Glaswanderer,

Thanks so much for your feedback. My Lasombra-era version is now painfully out of date; that was back in the day I was playing around with concepts of Yin Chi and Yang Chi (I'd imagined two different coloured beads per crypt card). As rough as that version was, it directly lead to this iteration; Mike contacted me on the strength of that draft and we started placing images next to my much-revised texts.

I don't have a reference sheet handy of all the symbols, but will put one together later down the track - particularly when we get the matter of Disciplines sorted out

Also, for those old-school fans of my 'alpha' design, or indeed fans of the RPG;

Whatever happened to the Direction trait?
Earlier drafts of KOTE had an additional trait for the Kuei-Jin, known as Direction. In the roleplaying game, Direction functioned as a quasi-astrological personality archetype. In the card game, Direction functioned similarly to Dharma, in that it was a Kuei-Jin-specific trait that granted access to a range of card-based effects.

During playtesting, it was found that Direction-specific cards tended to duplicate Dharma-specific cards, and as such the distinction was superfluous in most decks. In addition, most Heretical Dharmas eschewed the concept of Direction, so it only worked thematically as a Quincunx-only trait. As such, the decision was made to convert Directions into Quincunx-only Master: Archetypes, which will appear in a later release.

cheers
Disco Stu

Non-existant user wrote:

Ankha wrote:

When I read this, I think Chi should be replaced by blood. It may be less exotic, but since it is strictly the same, it would be more simple... Unless you want them to be restricted by Chanjelin Ward, Tenebrous Form etc.

This has to be tested, but it might be mandatory to make disciplines work. I guess one of the reasons behind the Conviction system is that the Imbued cannot hunt and play blood gain masters, so they cannot afford to pay cards with their life. If the Kuei-Jin are to play discipline cards, you want Giant's Blood, the Coven and Perfectionnist to work on them.

Hi Boris & Ankha,

Thanks for your comments. Blood and Chi are supposed to be interchangeable terms, unlike Blood versus Life (as some effects only allow Life to be stolen or gained, for example). The Coven, Giant's Blood etc all work in this draft - they just add Chi tokens rather than Blood.

If the term is found to be overly confusing, we can of course change it with zero impact on the mechanics. It's a stylistic nod only, to adds a little something to the KotE cards.

cheers
Disco Stu

Me again! Sorry about the multiple posts, but I thought it was time to add more to the rules infodump.

Sects and titles
As mentioned, the default sect for the five key Dharmas of the Kuei-Jin is ‘Quincunx.’ The Quincunx has three titles, none of which are unique or city- or clan-/Dharma-specific.
Mandarin (1 vote)
Ancestor (2 votes)
Bodhisattva (3 votes)

There is another sect, ‘Heretical’, that will be explored in later releases.

(Design note: the decision not to tie the Ancestor to a given city was intentional; city-based contestation, which is really one of the key effects of city titles, did not seem likely enough to occur... and would be frustrating and overly random when it did.)


Tenets
‘Tenet’ is the a new card-type in KOTE. Tenet cards reflect a Kuei-Jin becoming more enlightened as he acts in a manner that complements the beliefs of his Dharma. As such, Tenet cards always require a Dharma (and thus, inherently, a Kuei-Jin). Tenet cards may be played by both tapped and untapped Kuei-Jin, and may be played as a combat card, reaction or action modifier depending on the circumstances.

A Kuei-Jin may have more than one Tenet, but only one of each Tenet. Kuei-Jin are more likely to achieve enlightenment by pursuing all aspects of their beliefs, rather than focusing on a single component of their Dharma.

(Design note 1: Tenets could also work well as a ‘combo’ card, listing the Action Modifier, Combat and/or Reaction cards on the left-hand side and only featuring Tenet as a keyword. In early playtesting, it was found that separating Tenets into their own card type emphasised these cards when held in the hand. They are relatively easy to convert back, however.)

(Design note 2: in the roleplaying game, Kuei-Jin gained power and influence based on how their relative state of enlightenment rather than their Generation. With that in mind, early drafts had KJ Master: Disciplines not providing any capacity boost, leaving Tenets as the key method to permanently boosting capacity. That distinction was eventually dropped when it became clear that this was too different to the core game’s mechanics. Several effects check the capacity of a Kuei-Jin against an opponent - it’s a central part of Kuei-Jin society - so I am happy to leave that effect on Tenets.)


P’o
‘P’o’ is a new ‘active’ keyword referring to a Kuei-Jin’s inner demon or dark nature, and is roughly analogous to a vampire’s inner Beast. Only a Kuei-Jin may have a P’o card, and a Kuei-Jin may have only one P’o. Each time a Kuei-Jin performs a particular type of action successfully (the type of action is listed on the P’o card), the card gains a P’o counter. These counters may be burned per the text of the P’o card.
If a Kuei-Jin has more P’o counters than Chi, they cannot attempt non-mandatory undirected actions.

And now, some more card images for your viewing pleasure...

cheers
Disco Stu