A mean for :CHI: to have ousting power

Ummmm.......

Chi has better bleed pump than any crappy support disxipline. Pay a blood for a bonding? Sold. Vic doesnt even have that. Now, some disciplines need help, so like

Help me!
Action modifier
X Blood

for nec: this acting minion gets +x bleed

FOR NEC: this acting minion gets +2X bleed. Oh, also +6 stealth, +4 strength, +3 hand size, and is the Independant, Anarch Bahari Baron of Glasgow with flight until the end of the action. Discard down to normal hand size at the end of the action.

Samedi and harbingers and gangrel and gargoyles need help. Ravnos HAVE help. They are cool, some tier one decks, like 2 of them, loads of tier two, and 40 billion fun decks can be built. Whats the problem you see?

Its not like Protean does anyrhing to help ousting like fata morgana does, and Gangrel get Revel instead of WoN. Sense dep goes where its needed, and you oust with bleeds or votes or combat(well..... bleed or votes, but combat is what it is) also, stealth, combat stuff, tuminos, eldest are kholo, week of nightmares, maybe red herring if you arein a meta full of Anneke and Anatole and Mordechai ben nun at every table.

But what is the percieved problem? Sense dep is expensive, drabas get hard to find..... maybe they need fae woards to balance how hard it is to get draba?

Eh Ravnos has trouble ousting, since when? Week of Nightmares and Tumnimos would like to have a word with you.

Just a note on the design: having 2X cost for 2X effect isn't better than having X cost for X effect.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

Just a note on the design: having 2X cost for 2X effect isn't better than having X cost for X effect.

I understand that the card I proposed doesn't answer a need in the game.

But I find the idea "interesting" (well it was MY idea ^^). And it seems to me that the cost is allways X blood on the card I wrote.

Timo wrote:

I understand that the card I proposed doesn't answer a need in the game.

But I find the idea "interesting" (well it was MY idea ^^).

The problem is that not only does it not address a need, it creates an unfun situation. The short version is: excessive table control can be an interesting and challenging deck to play for the relevant Methuselah, but it can also be massively unfun for everyone else.

By trying to make it much easier for a Ravnos deck to lock down everything in sight and oust speedily, other players lose their minions and their ability to act. Players without minions generally do not enjoy the game as much. This is a common-ish problem with rabid combat decks, that pack 12 rushes, 97 Immortal Grapples, and 350 Torn Signposts. (Numbers may be off.) But that's often a, relatively speaking, interactive deck. I can block the rush with a chump blocker. I can play Obedience. I can maybe play Majesty, or maneuver to long range. I can throw out Illusions of the Kindred to fox you. I can prevent all your damage with Skin of Steel. I can die in a smouldering heap but also throw down Weighted Walking Stick, Lucky Blow and/or Target Vitals to throw out your calculations about how much blood you have, so Koko goes to torpor and your Dragonbound kicks in on yourself. And still, decks can be left with a red smear in their ready region, and few options against an aggressive combat deck - but those decks typically are slow-ish to oust, because bleeds for one are slow, and Fame and Dragonbound etc. are difficult to stuff your deck with.

Sensory Deprivation and, to a different extent, Reality are much less interactive, especially if you can aggressively play them quickly. Lock down a vampire and it can't act. But that's okay, you can do something to make my vampire leave the ready region and then it'll be fine - Banishment or a rush or something. Oh, except each time you bring out a minion, I have another Sensory Deprivation to throw at you. Being Ravnos, I have reasonable access to stealth - some in Chimerstry/Ravnos, a fair chunk around in off-clan Obfuscate - and can potentially toss around bits of unblockability from Fortitude (less useful for Sens Dep, but not entirely awful for Reality), so blocking is harder than tossing in a chump blocker for a rush deck that struggles to get beyond the odd +1 stealth from something like Swallowed by the Night. Toss in a little blood gain, some Ravnos Cache... Throw in a Pentex Subversion or two. It's locking down players quite hard.

And why isn't anyone doing this sort of thing at at the moment? Because bleeding for one or two all the time sucks for ousting, so it's slow, and dull. But now, I can thrown down your card, burn 2 blood, toss out 2 cards I no longer need and get +2 bleed, or at superior burn 1 blood, toss out 2 cards I no longer need and get +3 bleed.

Voluntary hand cycling is not a significant cost. Most of the time, it can be a huge benefit. No-one on the table is playing much intercept, so I can toss out this Fata Morgana and this Mirror Image? Well, I was going to throw one away with The Barrens, and probably discard the other in my discard phase, but now I can do that and get +3 bleed for the same cost as Conditioning.


This really isn't feeling "fun" for the game as a whole.

Timo wrote:

And it seems to me that the cost is allways X blood on the card I wrote.

Ah, sorry about that - I for some reason mistook the blood cost as being one. Mea culpa!