file Submission: Manifold Guise

08 Jan 2019 20:09 - 22 Jan 2019 16:04 #92709 by jblacey
Name: Manifold Guise
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 :blood:
Capacity: n/a
Discipline: :obf:
Clan: n/a
Text:
(D) action, choose another Methuselah and put this card into play.
:obf: You may burn this card when a (D) action targeting a minion you control is announced to change the target of the action to a minion (meeting any requirements) of the chosen Methuselah.
:OBF: As above, or you may burn this card when a bleed action targeting you is announced to change the target bleed to the chosen Methuselah instead.

Artwork: A woman is walking down the street and a doppelganger is watching from around the corner.

Question: Why?
Answer:
Originally, I was looking at creating reaction cards for Obfuscate, noticing that there are very few, it occurred to me that this could be design intent. That said clans (or vampires) without :AUS: or :DOM: are particularly vulnerable to (D) actions (not just combat). Also, I didn't want to follow the mistakes of Deflection. So the idea is create an action card (so that it requires activity... can't be used passively) for Obfuscate that allows them to survive action cards and bleed attempts by changing the target of the action. The effect means that the action can be blocked, however this card itself is more flexible. More than anything, this meant to be an active defense card.

Hopefully, this creates a unique mechanic for action defense and bleed bounce for the following clans:

Nosferatu / Nosferatu Anti
Gangrel Anti (City Gangrel)
Followers of Set
Assamite
Samedi

Yes, this also gives Malkavian / Malkavian Anti and Baali more options, however imho they already have better options.

The clan that gains the most from this card is Samedi, as they have access to :for: and they can use multi actions and meaning they aren't required to be an intercept wall with less reliable intercept.

Also this means that both Gangrel Anti and Assamites can access bleed defense other than just blocking.

The decks that this card most effectively counters are Power Bleed and oppressive actions like Mind Rape, Sense Deprivation, etc.

Note: the idea is that this would be a card is on the table, meaning players *should* be trying to play around it (slowing aggression) and the action itself costs a blood and does not start with innate stealth. I am okay with this card sending an active minion against their controller or a minion they control if using the inferior text. Hopefully, this wouldn't create a rules issue.

Source Material: Libellus Sanguinis 4: Thieves in the Night Pg. 77
Manifold Guise: (Obfuscate 6) Make everyone in an area look like someone else as with Mask of a Thousand Faces, whether they want to or not.

Update: Jan 9th 2019

Manifold Guise
:action:
1 :blood:
(D) action, choose another Methuselah and put this card into play.
:obf: You may burn this card during a (D) action targeting a minion you control to change the target of the action to an eligible minion of the chosen Methuselah, but not a minion controlled by the acting minion's controller.
:OBF: As above, or you may burn this card during a bleed action targeting you to change the target to the chosen Methuselah, but not the acting minion's controller.

Reason: Shorten text, clarified targeting, and removed unnecessary timing restriction.

Update: Jan 22nd 2019

Manifold Guise
:action:
1 :blood:
Put this card into play.
:obf: You may burn this card during a (D) action targeting a minion you control to change the target of the action to an eligible minion, but not a minion controlled by the acting minion's controller.
:OBF: As above, or you may burn this card to make a bleed action targeting you fail.

Reason: Shorten text, removed (D) action requirement, changed bounce effect to "bleed action targeting you fail"
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 16:04 by jblacey.
The following user(s) said Thank You: lionel, LivesByProxy

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09 Jan 2019 00:03 - 09 Jan 2019 00:04 #92711 by jamesatzephyr

jblacey wrote: I am okay with this card sending an active minion against their controller or a minion they control if using the inferior text. Hopefully, this wouldn't create a rules issue.


The rules prohibit you from bleeding yourself (6.1.1) or entering combat with another of your own minions (6.4). Even when cards have had text that permitted combat from or to 'any' minion without specifying that it had to be someone with a different controller (e.g. early Haven Uncovered), it had to be someone with a different controller.

jblacey wrote: Note: the idea is that this would be a card is on the table, meaning players *should* be trying to play around it (slowing aggression) and the action itself costs a blood and does not start with innate stealth.


You have it triggering when the action is announced, so if it's not triggered then, I know you can't use it - so I can then go on to play my action modifiers or other non-action-based bleed modifiers, safe in the knowledge that you aren't going to use it. This means it hurts strategies that have access to bleed action cards as their main bleed boost, such as Assamites with Loss in particular. Anyone who can load up with action modifiers is at much less of a disadvantage - bleed for 1, if I get bounced the worst that happens is my grand-prey (or whoever) takes a bleed for 1, or if I don't get bounced, I bleed you for 4 with Conditioning like normal. As a general rule, leaving Dominate and Dementation with a quantifiably better outcome than other bleed strategies is something I'd prefer to avoid.

jblacey wrote: You may burn this card when a (D) action targeting a minion you control is announced to change the target of the action to a minion (meeting any requirements) of the chosen Methuselah.


Textual niggle: you probably don't mean 'requirements', but more like something 'but must be an eligible target'.

Either way, you hit a number of unpleasant glitches with card effects that say something like: "Wynn may enter combat with a vampire controlled by your predator or prey as a +1 stealth (D) action.", if you then try to make Wynn enter combat with a vampire controlled by his grand-prey, or similar. As things currently stand, if you mess around with the controller of the target of an action mid-action (using Temptation, usually), this can cause the action to fizzle when the target vampire is no longer controlled by the appropriate controller. Similarly, for any card that says "Choose another Methuselah's minion" or similar text.

[LSJ 20020527]

LSJ wrote: > #2. A. (Cornercase). Methusaleh Z has finished with his minion phase actions.
> Methusaleh Y (cross-table from Z) uses the Madness Network to perform an action
> directed at Y's predator, Methualeh X, (i.e. Slaughtering the Herd at superior,
> Roxanne's rush, etc.). If Methusaleh Z uses Temptation to gain control of the
> targeted vamp, then the action fails, right? Since that vampire is no longer a
> valid target (controlled by predator/prey).

Correct.


(This is in much the same way that an Ambush can fizzle, if the target untaps mid-action, because the target is defined as a '...ready tapped minion...')
Last edit: 09 Jan 2019 00:04 by jamesatzephyr.

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09 Jan 2019 00:29 #92712 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Manifold Guise

jamesatzephyr wrote: The rules prohibit you from bleeding yourself (6.1.1) or entering combat with another of your own minions (6.4). Even when cards have had text that permitted combat from or to 'any' minion without specifying that it had to be someone with a different controller (e.g. early Haven Uncovered), it had to be someone with a different controller.


I was afraid of that.

You have it triggering when the action is announced, so if it's not triggered then, I know you can't use it - so I can then go on to play my action modifiers or other non-action-based bleed modifiers, safe in the knowledge that you aren't going to use it. This means it hurts strategies that have access to bleed action cards as their main bleed boost, such as Assamites with Loss in particular. Anyone who can load up with action modifiers is at much less of a disadvantage - bleed for 1, if I get bounced the worst that happens is my grand-prey (or whoever) takes a bleed for 1, or if I don't get bounced, I bleed you for 4 with Conditioning like normal. As a general rule, leaving Dominate and Dementation with a quantifiably better outcome than other bleed strategies is something I'd prefer to avoid.


I could remove the "announcement" requirement. My fear was that it might make the card too good.

Textual niggle: you probably don't mean 'requirements', but more like something 'but must be an eligible target'.


Yes, I was deliberately trying to avoid the illegal target situation.

Either way, you hit a number of unpleasant glitches with card effects that say something like: "Wynn may enter combat with a vampire controlled by your predator or prey as a +1 stealth (D) action.", if you then try to make Wynn enter combat with a vampire controlled by his grand-prey, or similar. As things currently stand, if you mess around with the controller of the target of an action mid-action (using Temptation, usually), this can cause the action to fizzle when the target vampire is no longer controlled by the appropriate controller. Similarly, for any card that says "Choose another Methuselah's minion" or similar text.


You definitely seem to understand the effect and the complications that I am trying to avoid.

Any suggestions on card text?

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09 Jan 2019 12:43 #92719 by LivesByProxy
(D) action, choose another Methuselah and put this card into play.
:obf: You may burn this card when a (D) action targeting a minion you control is announced to change the target of the action to a minion (meeting any requirements) of the chosen Methuselah. The new minion can't be controlled by the acting minion's controller.
:OBF: As above, or you may burn this card when a bleed action targeting you is announced to change the target bleed to the chosen Methuselah instead. The new Methuselah can't be the acting minion's controller.

It's clunky and redundant, but it works, no?

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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09 Jan 2019 15:20 - 09 Jan 2019 15:24 #92724 by jblacey
Replied by jblacey on topic Submission: Manifold Guise
Let me see if I can shorten text.

Manifold Guise
:action:
1 :blood:
(D) action, choose another Methuselah and put this card into play.
:obf: You may burn this card during a (D) action targeting a minion you control to change the target of the action to an eligible minion of the chosen Methuselah, but not a minion controlled by the acting minion's controller.
:OBF: As above, or you may burn this card during a bleed action targeting you to change the target to the chosen Methuselah, but not the acting minion's controller.

Changes:
- Removed the announcement restriction to "during" to mean anytime before the action is complete.
- Replaced (meeting any requirements) to "eligible" to clarify terminology that this card effect doesn't override normal targeting restrictions.
- Added a clarify statement to both the inferior and superior effect.

Better?
Last edit: 09 Jan 2019 15:24 by jblacey.

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09 Jan 2019 16:07 #92727 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Submission: Manifold Guise
Doesnt the rulebook or some ruling already say that a minion cant bleed their controller ever in any circumstance? Wouldnt that make the last piece of text redundant?

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