The Full Bleed project - back on my bullshit [03.20]

BenPeal wrote:

There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options:

- Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.)
- Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner.
- Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it).
- Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve.
- Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices.

I agree that the expansion symbols are generally far too large, and they're especially distracting in this new (and pretty brilliant!) design. I'd vote for ditching it entirely and using an abbreviation. Keep things clean.

Edited to add: I don't love the way that the clan symbols of certain clans (especially Assamite, but also all antitribu) spill out over the border. When they're contained to the sidebar, they look great, but when they splash over they... float. They look like they're floating. Something about it doesn't work.

BenPeal wrote:

Some thoughts:

These cards aren't true "full-bleed", which is when the art extends all the way to the edges of the card. There's still a black border around the edges - which is good in my opinion. If the game were to go back in print, true full-bleed would cause two problems. Gameplay-wise, you would have to sleeve them in tournaments, as the edges of the cards would be distinctive. Production-wise, true full-bleed costs more. Keeping the black border around the edges would eliminate those issues, and the cards would still look great - the mock-ups you've seen so far have that border.

The mock-ups self-biased has done have square edges, whereas actual VTES cards have rounded edges. Compare the mockups with the DM and TU cards. Minor point, but I mention it for the sake of completeness.

The clan symbol should be a bit larger, and ultimately should be the dominant icon on the card.

The text box appears to have some transparency issues, such that the clan background is kinda bleeding through. It might be a layering thing, where the bleed-through is coming from the clan background instead of the art background. I'd prefer the latter.

There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options:

- Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.)
- Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner.
- Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it).
- Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve.
- Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices.

There is a LOT I like about this layout concept. It's fresh. It's clean. It's uncluttered. It looks new - which could be especially important if the game comes back. It might very well be better for gameplay, identification, and user experience. It looks sharp. It looks great. On top of it all, it still looks and feels like V:TES. Bravo!

Ben I strongly agree with you. Seeing the new expansion full-bleed cards made by the guy I see a problem: the only way to identify the clan is the clan symbol and the texture on the disciplines "bar". So, the clan symbol must be bigger and the texture is necessary too. I guess people will take time to get used to this new layout but I guess this is completely normal, considering the game has more then 15 years with the current layout and change is painful most of the time.

Overall, i like those new concepts very much. As Ben correctly identified, clan icons need to be larger and expansion set smaller. I don't think that left bar have to be expanded.

I'd gladly play with those mixed with post-camarilla edition ones, and of course entire full-bleed crypt. Loss of clarity isn't huge, as long as clan icon will be resized.

BenPeal wrote:

The mock-ups self-biased has done have square edges, whereas actual VTES cards have rounded edges. Compare the mockups with the DM and TU cards. Minor point, but I mention it for the sake of completeness.

The clan symbol should be a bit larger, and ultimately should be the dominant icon on the card.

The text box appears to have some transparency issues, such that the clan background is kinda bleeding through. It might be a layering thing, where the bleed-through is coming from the clan background instead of the art background. I'd prefer the latter.

the rounding of the corners are a pretty simple fix on my end. i'm not really emotionally invested in either option; i just went with the one that was less work.

I feel that the clan symbol should probably stay within the confines of the discipline bar. with the sabbat clans, the wax drip hangs off the bar, which if you look closely several of the Sabbat cards i've done the icon isn't very centered. I was trying to get the actual symbols to be approximately the same size. It's also struck me as odd that only the Sabbat Clans have the wax drip as it creates an inconsistency in the overall design and feel of the card. ideally it should probably be all or nothing. then again, I'd also be in favor of eliminating all of the antitribu clans and doing a mass errata replacing them with the original clan. i assume that i'm very much in the minority with that particular opinion.

The text box is a pretty easy fix. i had wanted to have more of the clan pattern somewhere on the card.

There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options:

- Not have one at all, but I'm guessing most players want an expansion indicator of some kind. I gotta say, though, self-biased's original mockups with the Van Fleet art look fantastic without an expansion symbol. Compare those with the DM/TU mockups he did. The expansion symbol is a giant distraction. (side note: I have no idea why WW made the expansion symbol so large and its placement so odd in the present layout, but it drives me nuts.)
- Make the expansion symbol a lot smaller, and tuck it all the way into the top-right corner.
- Make it a lot smaller and put on the top right corner of the text box, overlapping it like the capacity symbol does (maybe having a fixed-size "badge" for it).
- Make it a lot smaller and tuck it into the bottom-left-hand corner, below the first discipline icon, where it can be covered up by the hologram of a card sleeve.
- Ditch having an expansion symbol, but instead have an abbreviation (like SOC, LON, JYH, 3ED, etc.) in between the artist and copyright notices.

my vote would be to shrink it and put in the top right corner of the card, so that it's there, but not in the way and dominating like it is now. I'll make some edits and see what you guys think.

I want THIS Gangrel Justicar !

And about Self Biased question about deleting antitribu clans and merging all base with antitribu :

It would be very weird rule-wise because of things like brujah getting gang territory, waste management operation AND new carthage and brujah debate...

Or foundation exhibit AND toreador grand bal...

Or rachel brandywine with an enchanted marrionette...

And other question : what is the "default sect" of brujah ?

self wrote:

I feel that the clan symbol should probably stay within the confines of the discipline bar. with the sabbat clans, the wax drip hangs off the bar, which if you look closely several of the Sabbat cards i've done the icon isn't very centered. I was trying to get the actual symbols to be approximately the same size. It's also struck me as odd that only the Sabbat Clans have the wax drip as it creates an inconsistency in the overall design and feel of the card. ideally it should probably be all or nothing.

The main thing here is making sure that the clan of the vampire is readily identifiable from across the table. The clan symbol might be large enough as is, but some have commented their concern that the side stripe with the clan background might be too small for easy recognition. Some comments:

- The side stripe might be the right size anyway, provided that the background for each clan is distinctive enough. This might require (some) new backgrounds.

- The clan symbol might be large enough as is (contained within the stripe). It might not.

- The dramatically increased size of the portrait might contribute to improved identification of vampires from across the table, perhaps making changes to clan symbol size and clan background redundant.

I suspect we won't really know for sure until we test a few different layout options.

There's also what to do with the expansion symbol. Some options:

my vote would be to shrink it and put in the top right corner of the card, so that it's there, but not in the way and dominating like it is now. I'll make some edits and see what you guys think.

How about we try two different options:

"Your Way" - don't increase the size of the non-Sabbat clan symbols, shrink expansion symbol and put in top right corner

"My Way" - increase the size of non-Sabbat clan symbols to match that of Sabbat clan symbols, eliminate expansion symbol and replace with acronym (DM, TU, FN, SOC, etc) in between artist and copyright notice