ReVamping VTES?

The thread has went far from where it started.
It is too generalized and broad to help with much, but it shows there are some players vocal about wanting to change huge swaths of the game. Obviously, this isn't the primary opinion, as only a few people seem to take issue with 50% or more of the game, and are a minority.

The OPs opinion and view matters because seeing these views from before playing ever, then after just starting to play, then getting more into the game are crucial in getting new players and marketing future vtes for acquisition.
Also obvious is most of the player base and presumably the IC are about this game, and both retention and acquisition, because making a new game has nothing to do with keeping the current one alive.

All the talk of another game like this is cool, but not about vtes or killing vtes, and I think the worry that this is the approach is what makes some players angry and hostile where they're not normally.

So, the obvious lesson to take is where to apply these opinions in teaching new players, and applying these observations into designing starter geared future vtes product.

It's plainly not and never will be about scrapping the game to do something else. Because this is THE vtes site. Not where you go to tell people you hate playing it, but where you talk about vtes.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

The thread has went far from where it started.
It is too generalized and broad to help with much,

Really? I thought I was being pretty specific. I think the game needs a fresh coat of paint (graphic design), including but not limited too:

• Better 'skins' or textures for the vampire clans and different types of library cards.
• Better artwork. Some of the more recent artwork for the PDFs is nice.
• Size up the icons important for gameplay. It is silly to have the expansion icon be the largest on the card when it is the least relevant.
• Update some icons so it is more obvious what they are. I think Dementation and Protean are some of the worst offenders here.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

but it shows there are some players vocal about wanting to change huge swaths of the game.

There was no one who agreed with my more extreme ideas about changes to combat or the setting details. I'm alone here.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Obviously, this isn't the primary opinion, as only a few people seem to take issue with 50% or more of the game, and are a minority.

I wouldn't even say a few people. Everyone in this thread have said that my more extreme ideas go to far, which is understandable. When people have agreed with me it was mostly about how VTES would benefit from better graphics or the LCG distribution model. I think BloodArtist and Self Biased agreed that combat had some messy or confusing cards that were unsuitable for a beginner product.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

[...] getting new players and marketing future vtes for acquisition. [...] both retention and acquisition, because making a new game has nothing to do with keeping the current one alive. [...] where to apply these opinions in teaching new players, and applying these observations into designing starter geared future vtes product. [...] It's plainly not and never will be about scrapping the game to do something else.

That's the major cross-roads we are coming to. Do the powers-that-be opt for 1) continuing VTES as is, preferably getting it back into print, 2) doing a "soft reboot" with some minor tweaks and graphical updates as a "core set" all-in-one starter box, or 3) do what FFG did with NetRunner and make a full-on spiritual successor like Android: NetRunner. It's worth mentioning that they've done this with L5R as well, and it seems to be working out all right. Fans of the old games are pleasantly surprised, and the new version has captured the attention of potential new players.

All three options are fine for me, as I like the game well enough as is, even though I think options 2 and 3 are equally valid, since I'm not invested in it like someone with a 10K card collection. But what option is the mostly likely to help WW get new fans and customers? That's ultimately what the question amounts to IMO. Is it worth sacrificing the collections of veteran VTES players in the potential prospect of gathering new players, customers, and fans? That's a tricky question, and I don't envy the person who has to make that call.

It's not really those 3 options though; it's a definitive option 1, and a question of how much of 2 is also valid.

Option 3 is only not an option because you aren't doing a "reboot", you're trying to sell a new game to people immidiately after killing the one they're invested time, money, and emotion into, which nobody truly believes is likely to succeed with the existing player base accepting and the public actually giving a toss.

Now, we have 2 large things poised to help the game:

Vampire the masquerade getting a new edition and having the potential to coincide with getting back in print.

I feel the most likely course of action for acquisition and retention is the creation of something that coincides with v5 and has appeal to both demographic of player (existing and potential ones).

We create a 5 starter decks based on probably cam clans, for simplicity, and streamline them in a way that makes the game somewhat easier to learn but also make it obvious that there's this endless abyss of possibilities to look into later.
Such a thing would need to be made of old cards and new ones made for this endeavor, but I do agree that is would be beneficial to have updated asthetics.

Such a product would be in several ways it's own standalone board game that's actually a card game, possibly considered a LCG, but in all actuality just be a renewed starter box for Vtes.

Then we see what sticks with people design wise and go from there.

self wrote:

[My own opinion is that I like Vtes just the way it is, but I'd like it even more if some of the finer details in the mechanics were more consistently applied across the respective ideas.

I got no problem in tweaking some finer details but most of the ideas that have been brought up in this thread haven't actually been that small...

Ke did some great looking redesigns for how the cards look an not everyone was that happy about those modifications. IIRC, lead designer was rather vocal about his dislike, but I might recall wrong. Anyhow, plenty of discussion in those relevant threads regarding the redesign of how the cards look. No need to try to reinvent the same points here again. Go to that thread (those threads actually), see what was discussed and chime in if need be.


Once again, if I were to start playing new game, say, MtG and after a few games would start pushing for (major) changes to the game in the vein: "I think these changes would really make the game rock. At least to me. And it would then be up to par with what is considered cool today by some people.", what would you think would happen and how the players would react?

Lönkka wrote:

self wrote:

[My own opinion is that I like Vtes just the way it is, but I'd like it even more if some of the finer details in the mechanics were more consistently applied across the respective ideas.

Once again, if I were to start playing new game, say, MtG and after a few games would start pushing for (major) changes to the game in the vein: "I think these changes would really make the game rock. At least to me. And it would then be up to par with what is considered cool today by some people.", what would you think would happen and how the players would react?

I would expect reaction in a much less disrepectful way than has been happening. It's a card game about vampires. Why take it so seriously?

I'm going to be honest, as a former MtG player, there are far far more rude asshats who I encountered playing that than I have played vtes with.

Which is saying something, since as a rule, vtes players are a global assortment of for a lack of better terms, really smart people. I mean, off the top of my head a random smattering of careers of vtes players are professor, programmer, pharmacist, Broker, healthcare professional, you get the idea. You'd think that vtes people would feel more entitled to being pretentious, but the college kids and $40k average a year jobbers I played mtg with we're way less pleasant.

More to Lonkkas point, I have never understood why we gotta be so hostile about everything all the damn time.

My favorite facility manager used to do this thing where he would say something terrible but add "respectfully" to the beginning or end, so the joke was we'd say things like "eat shit and die, respectfully..."
Why do we as a community tend to act like this (but not In jest) so often?
You'd think we could be more clever about shooting down bad ideas, at least more passive aggressive than openly hostile.
I'm just happy the OP stuck around. Proves he may have the tenacity for some of the longer games that happen sometimes......