ReVamping VTES?

Yeah, I thought that's what you meant... I think they're using the similar thing in X-wing, Heroclix, and (as someone stated) old L5R?

They're really pretty! I'll give them that! For games where the amount of things (in X-wing's case, models) is limited and doesn't change that much during the game they work great. I feel that if I played a game with them it would instantly make myself as a player a bit more involved in whatever was tracked through that sorta wheel. It's really kinda big and personal.

Is it any easier to store though? If you'd have big ones like that for pool, and way smaller ones for vamps (going from 0 to 12, say), you could... probably... When I think about it 50 should be more than enough, even though a breed deck might need almost 15 + locations alone (still manageable), but are they really any easier to store or print than little cardboard tokens?

Why is it cheaper to produce? It's a sheet of cardboard anyways, and to be honest the single blood token could be really small - it doesn't have to be even a 5c (euro) in diameter, IMO. You could fit plenty on a A4.

Then you also need the plastic bolts to keep the wheels together.

I mean they look great, but are they seriously any more practical to put in a box?

Krausedit\\ To make things even more pretty, you could take the wheel into account in card templating though. Then again you could for the counters as well. I mean, reserve a round space from top right corner of the card to indicate where the wheel would go; but you could have wee slots circulating the (presumably oval) vampire artwork as well for glass beads/cardboard tokens. People could use them if they wanted, it would look great, but no obligation.

Okay, so that wasn't really an argument to either direction...

Well, I did mean in comparison to a bag of glass beads, not cardboard tokens. Cardboard cutouts would be OK too, I guess, although I think using hundreds of those might be a bit much.

@Cat_in_Exile, @Kraus:

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong thing. Yes, Ben Peal is right that the number of counters are an issue, but I don't think it is THE issue. The counters are not going to be what is off-putting to potential players / buyers of the game - the artwork and graphic style and rules complexity is. Potential players are going to be drawn to the game by the artwork and graphics first and foremost, and this is what will "sell" the world of Vampire to them. They will most likely be willing to put up with counters or tokens in whatever form, cardboard or otherwise, since it is expected that every "complete game in a box" which the LCG Core Sets market themselves as (more or less) will come with some kind of counters / tokens. And it isn't like there are 3-5 different counters for things. There is really only one (1) counter type (that would be present in a 'core set') and that would be pool (or blood, which is pool by another name.)

Not trying to be snappy, I just don't get the fixation on the issue of counters.

Well, on my part, that would be because I like the game as it is. I don't like any of the changes you are proposing, really, other than agreeing that there's some poor art on some of the cards.

And BTW, I've only been playing this game since January of last year, so this isn't nostalgia talking. VTES is awesome.

@Cat_in_Exile:

It certainly seems like fun, I just think it suffers from a lot of unnecessary mechanics and unhelpful complexity (for the purposes of convincing others to play it, why they should be interested in it, etc.)

Care to share anything / great experience that epitomizes why VTES is fine / perfect / great as is? I would genuinely like to hear your (all of you wonderful people) best stories.

I've had tons of cool and intense moments playing, but, sorry, recapping what made them so fun feels like too much exposition for me to write here. Maybe someone else will be inclined to do so, though. I wish there was more high level gameplay videos on youtube for people to enjoy.

However, I would at least recommend actually experiencing gameplay for yourself before deconstucting it and deciding what you find unneccessary or not.

Maybe what you suggest could make for a good game, I dunno, but it would be a completely different game disconnected from Masquerade (or Requiem, even). It's kind of like suggesting revamping Axis & Allies and then making it more like Risk, after opening the box and deciding there's too many different types of units and too many countries involved, changing it to World War 3, all without having played it.