question-circle So, what would you change in VTES?

08 Jun 2019 12:23 - 08 Jun 2019 12:25 #95320 by Kraus

Rynkle wrote: Very confused by what seems veteran players talking about a streamlined version of the game ...

Note that these forums are actually rather mellow, and do not represent a majority of players. :) Those that frequent here make up for a rather diverse group of casuals, non-competitive players, tournament veterans, organizers and kitchen-tablers.

Tldr; the current ruleset allows for very varied approaches. Don't try to change that.

This, one hundred percent. I could elaborate, but in the end that's that.

However, even with this in mind some things are either just generally harmful for the game experience in as objective way of speaking as possible (keeping in mind that there's a niche for everyone), or are just so much more powerful than other strategies that it harms the diversity.

A very simple wish list for my part:

1) Either ban Liquidation or restrict Master phases to 2 all around the board. I would've liked to see errata to Ashur Tablets, but with two reprints already out from BCP, I do not think that's a good idea. The best solution is probably a rulebook addition of max 2 MPA, followed by errata to all MPA sources to read "2 instead of 1" instead of "extra MPA". Yes, including Synesios, sadly.
2) Ban those events that clutter the game needlessly or require a lot of book keeping. I wouldn't mind them, other than that they make games longer and longer. Not power level, but the insane time sink that they are. Blood Weakens and Veil of Darkness are the top offenders. Other than that most events are fine (just oust those ally swarms from cross table, srsly).
3) Implement the 'prerange' step to 'manouvers' step, and do the same for 'press' and 'end of round'. It will affect a few cards, but would make the game smoother. Simple enough.
4) Remove the rule that allows an unlock after Imbued Powers, and print new cards to make up for the lost utility. They are fine, but are most interesting when played 'with' vampires, instead of 'instead of' vampires. Maman is excellent design.

Other than that? Play enough control, learn to smile once in a while and make friends while playing. There is no better game to do that than VtES, both mechanically and socially. Keep at it. :)

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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Last edit: 08 Jun 2019 12:25 by Kraus.
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08 Jun 2019 13:15 #95321 by Mewcat

DJHedgehog wrote: I agree with Mewcat in that I think a reboot would be the way I would address the game as a whole. The problem of course is that the current game would "die" again and most current methusalah's would just keep playing the dead game. Let's pretend that's not the case.

Unlike Mewcat, I don't think we need to go too crazy with limiting the bleed. Games take too long as it is. I think we need better ways to punish big bleeds so people have to make a decision other than "maybe they bounce it", because archon investigating a 3-5 cap isn't a big deal.

I would want to streamline combat and political actions because they take too long. Politics should be more risk and more reward. Combat should be more grindy than swingy (the wearing down aspect is what I like, the enter combat disarm+amaranth I don't like). Less card intensive combat that is more flexible.

Reigning in bloat, generally speaking, would be great. More specifically, MMPA and open ended cards like taste and voter cap seem silly. Beads should be scarce. Resource management and risk/reward is what makes this game interesting. Highlight that shit.

Events and imbued are dumb. Allies in general are fine, but the additional layer of imbued and their rules, plus how little they fit into a game called VAMPIRE make me want to jettison imbued. Events are just a less interactive and more impactful master card you play in your discard phase. THEY BROKE NEW GROUND!


What ideas to punish big bleeds do u have? With the stealth mechanic as it is big bleeds are problematic. Just easy to do.

Between bloat reduction and bleed reduction games should be about same duration. Imo games take forever cuz people want to talk about every action and just play slow.

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08 Jun 2019 15:21 #95322 by Snodig

Mewcat wrote: What ideas to punish big bleeds do u have? With the stealth mechanic as it is big bleeds are problematic. Just easy to do.

Between bloat reduction and bleed reduction games should be about same duration. Imo games take forever cuz people want to talk about every action and just play slow.

Archon Investigation and bounces, in terms of direct answers.
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08 Jun 2019 15:41 #95323 by Mewcat

Snodig wrote:

Mewcat wrote: What ideas to punish big bleeds do u have? With the stealth mechanic as it is big bleeds are problematic. Just easy to do.

Between bloat reduction and bleed reduction games should be about same duration. Imo games take forever cuz people want to talk about every action and just play slow.

Archon Investigation and bounces, in terms of direct answers.


He was talking about more, possibly better, answers. Bounce is dumb cuz the bleed still goes somewhere and the whole game should be about the 2 disciplines that bounce. Archon is a good way to punish large vamps bleeding big but lackluster otherwise.

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08 Jun 2019 16:51 #95325 by Lönkka

Mewcat wrote: Bounce is dumb cuz the bleed still goes somewhere and the whole game should be about the 2 disciplines that bounce. Archon is a good way to punish large vamps bleeding big but lackluster otherwise.


Big bleeds finish tables.

We currently often tend to experience timeouts, and people complained even in this thread about games taking long. With big bleeds removed I would assume that the problem would just intensify.

Adding bounce to yet new disciplines would probably not make the game much better. Not all disciplines can do everything. And don't need to.

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08 Jun 2019 16:56 #95326 by Lönkka

Kraus wrote: 2) Ban those events that clutter the game needlessly or require a lot of book keeping. I wouldn't mind them, other than that they make games longer and longer. Not power level, but the insane time sink that they are. Blood Weakens and Veil of Darkness are the top offenders. Other than that most events are fine (just oust those ally swarms from cross table, srsly).


Veil of Darkness is indeed pain in the rear end, but Blood Weakens not so.
People run across either so seldom that it is pretty hard to recall what to do. Ain't rocket science though.

But you are kinda right. I would hate to lose them though but I would understand why one or both would be removed.

Kraus wrote: 4) Remove the rule that allows an unlock after Imbued Powers, and print new cards to make up for the lost utility. They are fine, but are most interesting when played 'with' vampires, instead of 'instead of' vampires. Maman is excellent design.


No need to completely remove.
Just make it work like Trifle does: You Unlock only after the first Power you play during a turn.

Kraus wrote: Other than that? Play enough control, learn to smile once in a while and make friends while playing. There is no better game to do that than VtES, both mechanically and socially. Keep at it. :)


So much this!

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