question-circle Bleed vs Burn

30 Jun 2019 15:22 #95672 by LivesByProxy
Bleed vs Burn was created by LivesByProxy
Was thinking about something I would do if I had any influence over the game.

That would be: making there be a difference between bleed and burn. Currently, burn is used in place of 'discard' in most instances... except where it isn't used like on Revelations, Masque of Judas, Truth of Blood, Precision, Feline Saboteur, etc. Even though, according to the rulebook, these instances should be 'burn' as well:

When a card is "burned," it is placed into its owner's discard pile (the discard pile is called the "ash heap" for this reason). The ash heap can be examined by any player at any time. When a counter is "burned," it is returned to the blood bank (see Blood Bank and the Edge, sec 2.2).


Why?

Consider VTES' older sibling: Magic. The designers of Magic have made 'lose life' distinct from 'damage'. Damage results in the loss of life, but effects that say 'target opponent loses 3 life' do not count as damage. These tiny differences create thematic and mechanical distinctions between the colors of Magic, particularly Black and Red. The color Black, which represents death, decay, corruption, disease, etc. is the domain of 'lose life' effects. Red, on the other hand, which represents fire, passion, anger, etc. is the premiere color for dealing direct damage (see the classic Lightning Bolt for example.)

With VTES, playing up the distinction between burn vs bleed could and probably would result in different playstyles or archetypes. Some clans might be great at bleeding, whereas others focus on burning pool. Others might focus on moving pool to and from different cards like the 419 Operation of the Osebo. Furthermore, I think most 'costs' should be worded as 'spend' or 'pay' blood or pool, not burn. This would further allow for different effects. Both bleed and burn result in the loss of pool / blood, but they're ultimately different words for different triggers.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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30 Jun 2019 18:52 - 30 Jun 2019 18:54 #95673 by Khormag
Replied by Khormag on topic Bleed vs Burn
I dont really get this post. There already is a huge difference between bleed and burn, and burn vs damage. Bleed comes as a result of a bleed action. And when you are burning pool, the damage comes from a non bleed action or effect? And in combat damage vs burn blood are completely different already, as damage can torporize a vampire and burning or losing blood cant. Or am I missing something?

Prince of Joensuu, Finland
Last edit: 30 Jun 2019 18:54 by Khormag.

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30 Jun 2019 19:17 #95674 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Bleed vs Burn
@Khormag: I think BC should emphasize that bleed != burn (pool). They could be / should be two different ousting methods, supporting different strategies, and thematically representing different things. Having bleeds come from bleed actions and burn come from some non-bleed action is not sufficiently different in my book.

KRC is a glorified +2 bleed that requires stealth AND votes.

By making the distinction between bleed vs burn, they can print effects that support each. It would allow them to produce cards that help weaker clans without needing to print some new version of Conditioning specifically for that clan / their disciplines.

Just look at 419 Operation. It's a really neat way of reducing your prey's pool without saying bleed or burn. The word 'burn' is being used too generally, when it should be selectively applied to certain cards and effects.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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30 Jun 2019 21:27 #95677 by narpassword
Replied by narpassword on topic Bleed vs Burn
like Enticement?

i dont think any more distinction needs to be made...? ive never had my prey try and flick or reduce enticement thinking it was a bleed.

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30 Jun 2019 21:35 #95678 by Khormag
Replied by Khormag on topic Bleed vs Burn
I still dont get what you mean. There already exists plenty of cards to oust players other than bleeding. Such as Constant Revolution, Anarch Revolt, Smiling Jack, Antediluvian Awakening, Enticement, Fame etc. I think that it shows that this idea is already implemented in the game, and I would assume that its going to be seen in the future. So where is the problem?

Burn is just universal term to use to tell that effect causes someone to lose something, I think its really unnecessary to add more and more new words to tell the same thing in a already complex game, just to get things more interesting in some obscure way? Losing pool is losing pool, why would you need million terms to tell that?

Also saying that voting is just glorified bleeding, is really stupid and bad argument, because you could basically say that to everything. All the actions in VTES need stealth to success so everything is just bleeding?. You are basically saying that Fame is just glorified bleeding because you need the stealth to get to the combat with the right minion and strength to kill it?? They are completely different things...

Prince of Joensuu, Finland

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30 Jun 2019 22:04 #95680 by Snodig
Replied by Snodig on topic Bleed vs Burn
I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure it's a brilliant idea.
It would open up a new piece of design space, but I can already sense the balance issues. There are a lot of effects that burn XYZ.
I'd rather see cards that are more specific than that.

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