Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?

Ok Ohlmann, Massive is difficult to describe, because in a sens some people think that gaining over 10 pool during a master phase should occur like once per game. Others think that playing Parity shift twice, which can be a 20 pool swing, is a better exemple of massive pool gain since it's easier achieved.

Some people also think massive when you have 4 inner circles + a sidekick in play and your pool total is still around 20.

My feelings :
If we stick to the definition, the basis of jyhad : the 30 pool you start with, are your influence. You spend them to have minions on the table. The more you spend, the more minions capable of overwhelming the tables you have -be it by combat, politics or number of actions.

The influence does not come out of nowhere : it's originally from methuselahs pool.
So if a deck is capable of influencing a total of vampires twice over the starting pool of the methuselah, you can choose to call it "smart deckbuilding". You can also say "there may be a loophole".

Remember magic ? It was wizards launching powerful, colorful creatures at each other.
At some point there was no point in playing creatures. You barely saw them in tournament, because it removed a frailty from decks and trumped other anti creature cards. So one of the basics of gameplay, which made casual games really fun (remember you first mtg game!) was , because of competition, amputated from the scene.

So the team took decisions to change that. So mtg could become the game it was designed for.

I think one of the aspects that drew people to V:tes was the fact that each and every vampire, you paid with your pool, ie: your own blood. That there was tension, that some tiny decisions can result to life or death.

Will this single pool make the difference ? Well at least i'll leave the jyhad in a blaze of glory !


Now, when I sit at a table, it's not the same excitation anymore. Maybe something is gone ? But the things at stake are relatively different : some decks can propulse themselves so high on the pool curve, there is nothing you can do once it's started (except if said player suddenly starts to play like a monkey).

How can you go through 30 pool of a (new) prey with 4 vampires out ? And if he gains 10 more ? There is almost no deck that is designed to do 60 pool damage. Or at least one which is interesting to play. So that leads to discouragement.
"Yes, bleed me for 3, I will just villein/lilith the next vamp" ... 27 pool to go...
The problem is you cannot gang on those decks. You can try to slow them but eventually, you have to play the game. And because they are the one that shine when others are struggling to win the game, once there is a windows, they soar above the rest in terms of bloating.
As Bram Stoker said : "The blood is the life".

so where is the thrill of the beginning ?
It's not really the game I used to enjoy... But I still love it.

Do I have an idea for fixing this ? No.
maybe we should cap the methuselah's pool ? And even like this, it would not be balance. Sorry if I have no answers, but at least I shared my feelings.

I voted no problems with either... with the possible exception of Giant's Blood. Metagaming is important. Too few people go into a game saying "I'm going to DI/block/Delay that vote" or Sudden that Villein + GB or Amaranth Cybelle. Time to put up.

Ankha wrote:

Any way that increases your pool by more than 3: Villein and Minion Tap mainly. I don't know why you're talking about pool recursion or what you mean by it, maybe it falls in that category.

Well, I may be wrong, but for me Villein and Minion tap are pool recursion : you use the same pool several time to put multiples vampires into play.

I seperate it from pool/blood gain in that no ressource are actually added to the system. In effect, you pay the second vampire with blood from the first one, with a bit a loss (because you will not usually empty a vampire completely, and because Zillah cost pool)

Ankha wrote:

Political Stranglehold, Reins of Power and Ancient Influence come next but since they're limited to 1 per game (or make you lose pool) they're a limited problem.
Con Boon could also be a trouble, but Ancilla Empowerement/Anarchist Uprising do the same amount of damage so they're ok.
Golconda costs you a vampire, so I don't have any problem with that. When you play it, you're usually in big trouble.

I agree that all thoses card are not problematic. Golconda may be, but mainly because it can restart the villein / zillah / information highway mechanism without much condition.

Reyda wrote:

How can you go through 30 pool of a (new) prey with 4 vampires out ? And if he gains 10 more ? There is almost no deck that is designed to do 60 pool damage. Or at least one which is interesting to play. So that leads to discouragement.

If a player has 30 pool and 4 big caps it means that a) someone brought a tournament deck to a casual game b) someone played badly or c) someone played well. What you are describing is not a standard mid game scenario. It's a win condition of a particular type of deck, analogous to 10 Tumnimos + Week of Nightmares or Enkidu being the last man standing. If a Girls type deck isn't rushed or heavily bled in the early turns then yeah, it will probably win. This is true for many tier 1 decks.

What does bug me, though, is Liquidation. Free pool with 0 interaction, starting from turn 1.