Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?

In VTES structuring, Ur Shulgi, Saulot, et al, must not be 'actual Methuselahs' in the same sense that the player is a Methuselah. I have plenty of idea of how the oWoD works.

Rewind Time = Temporis. If there is any discipline which should potentially be able to circumvent the abilities of an ancient vampire... Time travel should just about cover that. Santaleous I honestly find to be an aberration.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

In VTES structuring, Ur Shulgi, Saulot, et al, must not be 'actual Methuselahs' in the same sense that the player is a Methuselah. I have plenty of idea of how the oWoD works.

Well, you can't deny that Saulot, Meneles, and Helen, especially the first two, are directly written in the old wod as being the actor and not the pawn. A lot of other are not plausible as being only pawns, like Ur-Shulgi and a lot of other peoples

Also, imbued player are not alway Methuselah (they can be, but they can also be the Weaver, or one of its spirit, or simply a congregation of humans that want to get rid of vampires)

So, the reality is that player represent a methuselah, or a methuselah-level entity, or a group of methuselah temporary working together. Some stay in the background, other jump directly in the fray (like the aforementioned Saulot), and all use their backlogs of scheming to get Master effect. Whether there is only one mastermind or several working together are both completely casher with the rules.

And, if Santaleous is an aberration, Anson is also one. As is every MPA-giving vampires.

Ankha wrote:

Massive *pool* gain is the problem.

Could you give example ? Apart from Golconda, I can't see a massive pool gain which is used by really competitive deck and is not pool recursion. Then again, I suspect it's more that I don't have the same way to define massive.