Additional strikes?

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

2) Additional strikes are gained immediately after your current strike resolves. If you didn't strike, you don't have a window to gain additional strikes (this gets by simply deferring additional until Wind Dance gets out of the way).

This powers up Lapse at (which arguably could use a boost) and effects like grappling a minion who used a gun to maneuver, which may be more of a problem.

Rulebook 6.4.3

Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat. Each pair of strikes (one from each of the minions) is resolved before going on to the next pair. If only one minion has additional strikes, the "pair" will be just his strike.

This indicates that strikes are resolved in pairs. If the acting minion declares an additional strike, and the other minion does not, then the other minion cannot play additional strikes later.

There is no good reason to take away the advantage of a minion with more strikes.

(Imagine if V:tES was redesigned with the new World of Darkness... NO ADDITIONAL STRIKES. I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one. Someday, I hope you'll join me.)

direwolf wrote:

(Imagine if V:tES was redesigned with the new World of Darkness... NO ADDITIONAL STRIKES. I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one. Someday, I hope you'll join me.)

www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1463 ?

www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1057 .

Ankha wrote:

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

"Completed" is plain English, as is "resolved".

As would be the phrase "during X, do Y", which has a specific meaning in VTES.

There is no reason for different words to be used, but a supportable case to use the same ones.

Words have power. Inconsistent use of terminology begets rules questions.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

Ankha wrote:

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

"Completed" is plain English, as is "resolved".

As would be the phrase "during X, do Y", which has a specific meaning in VTES.

There is no reason for different words to be used, but a supportable case to use the same ones.

Words have power. Inconsistent use of terminology begets rules questions.

that's one of the things that made veteran mtg players able to virtually all double as judges. "The stack" "resolve" and other terms were in the rules and on cards to signify the nuts and bolts of card interaction. I think more consistent wording is our hero when it comes to rulings.

And completed is pretty plain, and has no other funky meaning assigned in our rules.

drnlmza wrote:

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

2) Additional strikes are gained immediately after your current strike resolves. If you didn't strike, you don't have a window to gain additional strikes (this gets by simply deferring additional until Wind Dance gets out of the way).

This powers up Lapse at (which arguably could use a boost) and effects like grappling a minion who used a gun to maneuver, which may be more of a problem.

Thanks for pointing these out. I hadn't considered these cases at all.

Personally, I don't see either being too problematic.

I haven't even seen Lapse played since Outside the Hourglass was printed. Other cards which prevent strikes through a full round (Rock Cat, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reastion) aren't tearing up the tournament scene, either. Those aren't reasons to buff Lapse, just a couple of observations about use patterns

On the Grapple vs maneuvered gun scenario: Kolks running dedicated guns decks rarely burn a card to gain additional strikes when restricted to hand strikes by Grapple.

"If I could have Blurred, the 2 damage would have sent Beast with 1 blood to torpor" is a good point though.

I'm more comfortable with creating this scenario than having one in which minions can defer additional strike generation.

Regardless of the solution, the rulebook must be changed for the reasons Darby pointed out:

6.4.3 wrote:

Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced (gained) and performed (used) gained only after the first pair of strikes are completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual. Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike phase and resolve strike phase in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards choose strikes. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.

The phrase "performed (used)" makes the timing of strike use ambiguous. Without it, the reader correctly infers that strikes are handled immediately in pairs.

The phrase "play strike cards" has always been inaccurate. A minion may choose to strike hands without any cards, but only if it has additional strikes.

I believe those changes are necessary. There is still an ambiguity created by bonus additional strikes, and LSJ's ruling. I believe there are two methods to resolve the ambiguity:

1. Make further changes to the rulebook to allow additional strikes to be gained after any set of strikes, incorporating LSJ's rulings, but force all strikes to be synchronized. (Darby's suggestion)
2. Repeal LSJ's ruling. Make no further rules changes. (All additional strikes must be gained up front)

I'm in favour of making all additional strikes be gained at the same time. Jacko, HfL, etc are all declared after the first pair of strikes are resolved. Any additional strikes not used because the opposing minion is not ready are wasted.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

I'm in favour of making all additional strikes be gained at the same time. Jacko, HfL, etc are all declared after the first pair of strikes are resolved. Any additional strikes not used because the opposing minion is not ready are wasted.

What if the minion playing the additional strikes is using strike cards instead of simply shooting with a gun? Your suggestion disables a card flow mechanism that a "does not count against the limit" deck probably needs.

Granted, this represents a very small fraction of decks, but this whole thread is full of almost cornercase scenarios. We just want to get it right, eh?

If just seems easier (and logical) to say "you can't generate additional strikes if you didn't just strike, m'kay?"