Shortcuts in VtES Official Games

KevinM wrote:

A sounds like either the worst player in the world, or a big fat filthy cheater.

not really buddy. If it's the third time B gets rushed in a round and didn't play anything before range before, then the odds of him having a drawing out the beast are quite slim. Especially if B's vamp have only some odd inferior animalism...

and don't forget also : some players are sloooooow. It's not their fault, they tend to play carefully and ponder each decision : their brain function that way. C'est la vie.

Wasn't there a championship where someone accidentally self ousted with a magnom, but LSJ decided it should be rolled back because the player did not announce the cost while playing it?

Reyda wrote:

KevinM wrote:

'A' sounds like either the worst player in the world, or a big fat filthy cheater.

not really buddy. If it's the third time B gets rushed in a round and didn't play anything before range before, then the odds of him having a drawing out the beast are quite slim. Especially if B's vamp have only some odd inferior animalism...

and don't forget also : some players are sloooooow. It's not their fault, they tend to play carefully and ponder each decision : their brain function that way. C'est la vie.

In the example given, either 'A' wasn't aware of the rules to the extent that he could play properly and well -- and then he WOULD know well how to do it after the first time, which means that your 'third time' example is moot -- or he does know the rules well and is dishonestly trying to mentally bully 'B' by not verbally or physically announcing in some fashion that the chance to play cards is now on 'B'.

I'll say this as a third-option: He could be a bad player AND be trying to bully 'B'.

nice. I managed to create a torrent of reactions to bad players.


on topic:
I might be wrong, but I think I considered shortcuts "the usage of words/names not used in the rules book" as well as "shortening/skipping of phases".

the first actually came to mind because of another post in the Rules Question, about Political Actions in which, I believe, Ohlmann said something along the lines of you should know your nomenclature and don't confuse "play", "call", "perform" and "resolve".

back to the skipping of phases, how about this example: discarding at the end of turn is usually taken a sign of passing said turn, although player A who discarded might not have said "I pass" or "go" or informed the table that he was passing, in a suitable manner.

or even: not having minions to untap, player B goes directly into master phase, while someone has an Omunculus in the table.

and yet: not having masters to play, or not wishing to do so, player A immediately taps a vampire, announcing a Fourth Tradition.

are these acceptable shortcuts?

bear with me here, I really am interested in this and while agreeing with Pascal that players should announce their plays clearly and give the opponent time to react, I am curious just how far this goes.


thanks again

Cyrus wrote:

Wasn't there a championship where someone accidentally self ousted with a magnom, but LSJ decided it should be rolled back because the player did not announce the cost while playing it?

I don't think it was a championship. There was a game in which someone self-ousted by playing Aaron's Feeding Razor when they had 1 pool. However, LSJ ruled that since that player did not announce the cost of the action, the action had to be completely rolled back.

I believe that this was not one of LSJ's more popular rulings.

Technically you have to announce every facet of an action when you declare it, including the stealth of the acting minion and the cost of the action. This is in the rulebook. LSJ has said that the default stealth during an action is zero and the default cost of an action is zero. Thus, you don't have to declare a minion's initial stealth of zero or an action's initial cost of zero. Otherwise, you have have declare any stealth or cost that is greater than or less than zero. If you do not, the action has not been properly declared and must be rolled back.

In the example I gave, the action got through block declaration and resolution before the action was declared invalid and got rolled back. (I may be wrong that the action in the tournament was rolled back - it might have been a retroactive ruling by LSJ.) I guess I could find the links if I really tried.

Anyway, technically, for example, if you do not verbally declare that your Govern the Unaligned costs 1 blood, you can roll it back after several other steps have occurred, according to the LSJ ruling and the implication of the rulebook. It's one of those cute cheats that exist in VTES that nobody's exploiting.

I think that LSJ ruled that way because the player playing the Aaron's Feeding Razor had obviously not meant to self-oust. He had obviously forgotten the cost of Aaron's Feeding Razor and was trying to cycle the card or something while in a losing position. It appears to me me that LSJ favored "compassionate" rulings that allowed people to go back when they made gross errors. See also "Points of Light" or whatever it's called. Unfortunately people don't really play so specifically in practice - you have to freaking bludgeon some people to get them to acknowledge they are passing through their discard phases or that they choose not to attempt to block. And fully declaring all aspects of an action? Sometimes it happens, and most times it doesn't.

AaronC wrote:

Anyway, technically, for example, if you do not verbally declare that your Govern the Unaligned costs 1 blood, you can roll it back after several other steps have occurred, according to the LSJ ruling and the implication of the rulebook. It's one of those cute cheats that exist in VTES that nobody's exploiting.

While I understand LSJ's point of view, never, ever, ever, would I allow for a rollback in such a situation unless otherwise ordered by the Headjudge. Although the player might be frustrated and even loose the game, its potential for abuse is GINORMOUS.
I might open an exception if the cards had errata (like, say, Delaying Tactics), but that would be a fix carefully pondered.