Learjet question

prunesquallor wrote:

I'm not suggesting to change (or wallpaper) anything, I'm looking for a more general way to think about how hand size / replacement / "do not replace" all interact.

My comment was just to say, it appears that "do not replace until XXX" effectively means "hand size reduced until XXX, at which time you should draw to replace". Good rulings are ones that give you a framework you can use to interpret other card interactions and have it be clear how the interaction works. And yes, that more explicit wording is too long to put on every "do not replace" card, but maybe it could be in an updated version of the rules or in the general rulings list.

A more explicit wording is unnecessary. You are viewing this in a vacuum.

'Do Not Replace' interacts with 1.6.1.2 and 2.3, both of which detail the playing of cards and the standard game-handsize. So, assuming one were to read the rulebook, one would gain an understanding of what 'Do Not Replace' meant, without needing to have it redefined because one was unaware of 1.6.1.2 and 2.3.

Replacing what I wrote to Kevin earlier; re-reading that paragraph the third time, I'm coming to the conclusion that the ruling is wrong, but I want to mull on this a bit more. I'll post either an argument or a "never mind" later...

prunesquallor wrote:

Replacing what I wrote to Kevin earlier; re-reading that paragraph the third time, I'm coming to the conclusion that the ruling is wrong, but I want to mull on this a bit more. I'll post either an argument or a "never mind" later...

How is it wrong? To say that "Into Thin Air isn't changing the hand size of the acting player, and so they don't have to discard because they don't have excess cards in their hand." is just plain wrong, based on Into Thin Air's card text, so how *could* the ruling be wrong?

Ok, I think I've put my finger on what is not quite right here. It's not the ruling (the conclusion is fine), and it's not the rulebook (which I think could still use some more clarity, since no one else has brought up the point below yet).

Rather, the problem is the exact choice of words in PB's ruling.

VtES Rulebook par 1.6.1.2
Drawing Cards. Whenever you play a library card from your hand, you immediately draw another from your library to replace it (unless card text says otherwise, of course). If your library is empty, then you do not draw to replenish your hand, but you continue to play. The number of cards in your hand should always match your hand size (less any cards you are not replacing until later). Whenever they don't match (when an effect changes your hand size or adds or removes cards from your hand, for example), immediately discard down to or draw up to your hand size.

Careful reading of the above indicates that "do not replace" cards do not affect your hand size. However, your hand size and the number of cards in your hand are not the same thing. That is, in my example, the hand size of the player is still 7, but "the number of cards in your hand should always match your hand size (less any cards that you are not replacing until later)".

Thus, my suggested clarifying wording is wrong - "do not replace" cards don't affect your hand size. However, your effective hand size is not necessarily the same as your actual hand size. In my example, the player has a hand size of 7 - nothing has changed that - but the rulebook says that the player should have 6 in their hand at that point (because of the "less any cards" clause of the above).

What's made it hard for me to understand the ruling and how to generalize it is the wording in two spots below from Pascal :

Pascal wrote:

prunesquallor wrote:

Let's say that an acting minion controls a Learjet, and attempts a bleed. A block is attempted, and the acting minion plays Into Thin Air.

At this point the player has 6 cards in their hand, since they can't immediately replace Into Thin Air.

Correct. Their handsize is 6 until their next untap phase.

prunesquallor wrote:

Next, Threats is played by the acting minion to boost the bleed. The player draws two cards to replace the Threats, and so they now have 7 cards in their hand.

Do they have to discard down to 6 cards at this point?

Yes, since the effect reducing handsize (Into Thin Air's replacement clause) hasn't ended. THeir handsize is still 6.

Tags: Do not replace hand size Learjet Into Thin Air

The number of cards in their hand is 6, and should remain at six until their next untap phase (unless anything else happens to change it). However, their hand size remains at 7, and nothing has changed that.

Here are several references of LSJ's posts explicitely reading cards you do not replace count against your hand size:
[LSJ 20040608] : Drawing a card after playing a do-not-replace Gehenna card.
[LSJ 20061004] (last section), [LSJ 20080501] : hand size affected by cards you do not replace.

I would agree that this parenthesis part isn't clear. I'll consider "The number of cards in your hand should always match your hand size (a card you do not replace until later reduces your hand size by 1 until you replace it)".