Learjet question

The question is about how Learjet interacts with hand size and with cards that are not replaced until later.

Learjet
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Vehicle.
Each time you draw to replace a card this minion played as an acting minion, you may draw an additional card (discard afterward). A minion may have only one vehicle.

Example of a "do not replace" card :
Into Thin Air
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
Do not replace until your untap phase.
[obf] +1 stealth. Once this action, this vampire may burn 1 blood to give an ally or younger vampire -1 intercept. Into Thin Air and Lost in Crowds cannot both be played on the same action.
[OBF] As above, but for +2 stealth.

Let's say that an acting minion controls a Learjet, and attempts a bleed. A block is attempted, and the acting minion plays Into Thin Air.

At this point the player has 6 cards in their hand, since they can't immediately replace Into Thin Air.

Next, Threats is played by the acting minion to boost the bleed. The player draws two cards to replace the Threats, and so they now have 7 cards in their hand.

Do they have to discard down to 6 cards at this point?

We had compelling arguments both ways.

Against the discard, one could say that the "(discard afterwards)" text on Learjet is just reminder text and can be ignored; meanwhile, Into Thin Air isn't changing the hand size of the acting player, and so they don't have to discard because they don't have excess cards in their hand.

In favor of the discard, there is the "(discard afterwards)" text. Also there's the notion that do-not-replace cards implicitly reduce your hand size, and so although the "(discard afterwards)" text is just a reminder, it still needs to be followed.

I did a little looking and found an interesting ruling, that seems to say that a "do not replace until..." card still gets the benefits of the Learjet once you do draw. So, in this case, when the player has their next untap phase and can finally draw to replace Into Thin Air, they draw two cards.

prunesquallor wrote:

Let's say that an acting minion controls a Learjet, and attempts a bleed. A block is attempted, and the acting minion plays Into Thin Air.

At this point the player has 6 cards in their hand, since they can't immediately replace Into Thin Air.

Correct. Their handsize is 6 until their next untap phase.

prunesquallor wrote:

Next, Threats is played by the acting minion to boost the bleed. The player draws two cards to replace the Threats, and so they now have 7 cards in their hand.

Do they have to discard down to 6 cards at this point?

Yes, since the effect reducing handsize (Into Thin Air's replacement clause) hasn't ended. THeir handsize is still 6.

prunesquallor wrote:

I did a little looking and found an interesting ruling, that seems to say that a "do not replace until..." card still gets the benefits of the Learjet once you do draw. So, in this case, when the player has their next untap phase and can finally draw to replace Into Thin Air, they draw two cards.

Correct (they draw one card, and can draw an additional card).

Tags: Do not replace hand size Learjet Into Thin Air

So, in general, we could substitute card text like "Do not replace until..." with "Your hand size is reduced by one until..."

I figured that if that's what "do not replace" meant, it would have the more explicit wording.

I guess the lesson from this one is to make the wording substitution above to make it easier to figure out these interactions.

prunesquallor wrote:

So, in general, we could substitute card text like "Do not replace until..." with "Your hand size is reduced by one until..."

I figured that if that's what "do not replace" meant, it would have the more explicit wording.

I guess the lesson from this one is to make the wording substitution above to make it easier to figure out these interactions.

This would mean that you would have to print both sentences on the card:
"Do not replace until your next untap phase, your handsize is reduced by one until you replace this card."

Because otherwise, you'd play the card, and according to the rules you would replace the card immediatly. Then you would discard a card as the played card states that your handsize is reduced. I guess that both sentences on their own could be misinterpreted. However, "Do not replace..." is a long-standing effect which is well enough understood. Longer sentences might pose a problem for the available space on the card.

if the rule was changed to "your handsize is reduced by one" then we wouldn't get to use the incredible power of Learjet when we replace Into Thin Air! are you trying to wallpaper these cards?

I'm not suggesting to change (or wallpaper) anything, I'm looking for a more general way to think about how hand size / replacement / "do not replace" all interact.

It just appears that "do not replace until XXX" actually means "hand size reduced until XXX, at which time you should draw to replace". I didn't grasp the nuances to the effective wording in my first reply.

Good rulings are ones that give you a framework you can use to interpret other card interactions and have it be clear how the interaction works. And yes, that more explicit wording is too long to put on every "do not replace" card, but maybe it could be in an updated version of the rules or in the general rulings list.