Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

Aaron wrote:

Okay, I'm still having troubles with this topic. I must really be missing something.

1. Why does an Illusionary crypt card that is burned in combat not get removed from play at the end of combat? Does it make a difference based on how the Illusion is burned, and if so, why?

I'm not sure where this leads, but my current understanding is that there is a difference.
Due to existing cardtext mentioning "not being burned", here's what I think is:
- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap
- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.
So, in the first case, you gon't get a choice - you must burn the Illusion (if it's been Disarmed, Amaranthed, or burns from the blood hunt referendum). In the second case, you get to choose.

However, this needs a ruling, and this isn't one. I'm adding this to the Review list, to make a proper statement.

2. Why would you get to choose the order of the Illusion being burned or removed from the game if the Illusion is Amaranthed? In other words, how is it that those two effects occur in the same timing window?

You wouldn't. If the Illusion is Amaranthed, it burns and is put in the ash heap (I updated former replies in this thread).

Thanks for the reply. I still see some problems here. Normally I don't find any technical problems with rulings, but I think a lot of the old rulings concerning Illusions of the Kindred do not come close to following the current rules framework. I wasn't playing when most of them were made, and I suspect that the rules team had a different timing paradigm at the time.

I also wonder if the wordings of Illusions of the Kindred and Amaranth have changed.

Pascal wrote:

- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap

Why does being in the ash heap protect the Illusionary vampire from being removed from the game by IotK's text? The ash heap is "in play". IotK states "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat."

Am I missing some rule or ruling concerning how cards in the ash heap are treated? To me this ruling adds text to IotK: "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat unless it is in the ash heap."

Pascal wrote:

- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.

The rules as written don't seem to support the assertion that vampires burned by aggravated damage do not burn until the "combat ends" timing window of combat: Complete rules reference VI.C.2.c. & VII.B.1., Rulebook 6.4.6.

This ruling raises a host of timing questions. For instance, the "burning" vampire would be technically ready (it never goes to torpor) and would pass through the press step, end of round step, and end of combat step before being burned, being able to play cards at every step.

I'll be clear: I think that if a vampire burns during combat because of aggravated damage, it goes to the ash heap during the damage resolution step. Wouldn't the other way require a significant reworking of the rules?

I'm trying to find a reference to whether Taste of Vitae can be played *before* Amaranth (that would be in an agg strike stiuation)

I'd say No to that (but can't find a ruling by LSJ saying either Yes or No).
So we're going to stick to the thing that has the "being burned" window closing if the bunring vampire doesn't play Reform Body or other stuff (Abandoning the Flesh, ...) - which would reverse my non-ruling open thought above (and seems consistent), and LSJ's ruling from some time ago.

Regarding the removal from the game part, I'll think about it, but so far, if the crypt card is in the ash heap when combat ends, it stays there [RTR 20001020]

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The reason the author gave for a burned Illusion to be able to be saved from removal from the game is wrong! There are no grounds for the text of IotK not to take effect if the Illusion is burned, regardless of timing.

Also, the author claims that "combat ends when the vampire is being burned".

Okay, now where is the rule that says that?

I understand that there is an unwritten rule that if a minion in combat is no longer ready, combat ends. (My little suggestion is that this rule belongs in the rulebook and rules reference )

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

I think it is: If a vampire is burned, combat ends.
He thinks it is: If a vampire is being burned, combat ends.

Two different things. Only one is right. As far as I can tell, we currently play it that combat ends AFTER the vampire is burned. The burn resolves -> combat ends. And when I say 'combat ends', I mean we skip ahead to Step E, 'Round ends', which is what happens when S:CE resolves (C.2.a.i. of the rules reference).

The author of the ruling also doesn't take into account the fact that 'round ends' effects (Step E) have to happen before 'combat ends' effects (Step F).

Illusions of the Kindred is actually very simple if one just follows what the card says and lets everything happen when it's supposed to happen! It's all about the six steps of combat, you know: A, B, C, D, E, & F

Please consider starting from scratch with Illusions of the Kindred!

Aaron wrote:

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The original Horrid Reality (DS) lacked that cardtext, that was added for FN. In the meantime, I guess a ruling was issued, that would read something like "The weapon isn't moved if it has been burned during combat." (found it: [TOM 19951212] )

Now, yes, the Final Nights version of IotK should've had its cardtext updated to match HR's update.
You can safely assume that IotK should read "remove from the game {{if it is still in play}}".


EDIT: Thanks Klaital Dunno how I got these two confused.

Umm you do realize that DS is older printing than FN?

Aaron wrote:

Also, the author claims that "combat ends when the vampire is being burned".

Okay, now where is the rule that says that?

I understand that there is an unwritten rule that if a minion in combat is no longer ready, combat ends. (My little suggestion is that this rule belongs in the rulebook and rules reference )

It's quite clearly written in the Rulebook:

6.4 Combat
[...] Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat [...]

So, if one of the minions ceases to be ready ("going to torpor", "in torpor", "being burned", "burned", "being removed from the game", "removed from the game" are those states that come to my mind right now), then combat ends.

"The combat ceased for want of combatants." Le Cid, Pierre de Corneille

Aaron wrote:

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

I think it is: If a vampire is burned, combat ends.
He thinks it is: If a vampire is being burned, combat ends.

Two different things. Only one is right. As far as I can tell, we currently play it that combat ends AFTER the vampire is burned. The burn resolves -> combat ends. And when I say 'combat ends', I mean we skip ahead to Step E, 'Round ends', which is what happens when S:CE resolves (C.2.a.i. of the rules reference).

Well, I'm trying to work on that one.

There's this: [LSJ 20031201] (question 4) that reads you can play Disarm, Taste of Vitae, Amaranth.
This means there's a window to play Taste of Vitae before Amaranth, which makes the lingering "going to torpor" effect last quite long.
I'm still wondering whether there should be only one opportutnity to play cards such as Undead Persistence / Amaranth (which would reverse this ruling above).

Pascal wrote:

It's quite clearly written in the Rulebook:

6.4 Combat
[...] Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat [...]

So, if one of the minions ceases to be ready ("going to torpor", "in torpor", "being burned", "burned", "being removed from the game", "removed from the game" are those states that come to my mind right now), then combat ends.

Aaron wrote:

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

Pascal wrote:

Well, I'm trying to work on that one.

There's this: [LSJ 20031201] (question 4) that reads you can play Disarm, Taste of Vitae, Amaranth.
This means there's a window to play Taste of Vitae before Amaranth, which makes the lingering "going to torpor" effect last quite long.
I'm still wondering whether there should be only one opportutnity to play cards such as Undead Persistence / Amaranth (which would reverse this ruling above).

The rule you cite doesn't really say what technically happens when a minion in combat is no longer ready. "combat ends" has a specific effect: go to step E. (Rules Reference VI.C.2.i). This rule does not literally say that you skip steps of combat if a minion is no longer ready. For instance, I would not interpret that rule to mean that if a vampire who played superior Drawing out the Beast was no longer ready after the Strikes step, that the other vampire could avoid the damage from DotB during the Press step. I guess it depends on what you think the word "participate" means.

The reason you can order Taste of Vitae and Amaranth in the same window is because ToV is played during Step E/Round ends and Amaranth can played any time in combat a vampire is going to torpor.

Step E. Round Ends
1. Taste of Vitae (played at the end of the round)
2. Disarm (played at the end of the round)
3. Amaranth (played whenever a vampire would go to torpor)

This doesn't imply a "lingering going to torpor" effect at all. It is played this way because of the timing framework provided by the Complete Rules Reference and the text of the cards in question. The ruling you reference is simply reiterating what is already in the rules.

Aaron wrote:

The rule you cite doesn't really say what technically happens when a minion in combat is no longer ready. "combat ends" has a specific effect: go to step E. (Rules Reference VI.C.2.i). This rule does not literally say that you skip steps of combat if a minion is no longer ready. For instance, I would not interpret that rule to mean that if a vampire who played superior Drawing out the Beast was no longer ready after the Strikes step, that the other vampire could avoid the damage from DotB during the Press step. I guess it depends on what you think the word "participate" means.

[LSJ 20021107] : "No press step for not ready vampires"
Complete Rules Reference "NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3]"

There is no press step if one of the combattants is not ready. There is no DotB damage if one of the combattants isn't ready.
[EDIT: Of course, any unhandled damage remaining to be handled must be handled. Stealing 2 life at close range from a Shambling Hordes with 2 life will still result in the vampire having to deal with 2 damage]

Aaron wrote:

The reason you can order Taste of Vitae and Amaranth in the same window is because ToV is played during Step E/Round ends and Amaranth can played any time in combat a vampire is going to torpor.

Step E. Round Ends
1. Taste of Vitae (played at the end of the round)
2. Disarm (played at the end of the round)
3. Amaranth (played whenever a vampire would go to torpor)

This doesn't imply a "lingering going to torpor" effect at all. It is played this way because of the timing framework provided by the Complete Rules Reference and the text of the cards in question. The ruling you reference is simply reiterating what is already in the rules.

I fully agree with this, but it's not what I meant / said.
What I meant / said was this:
1 - Disarm (or agg, or entombment, ..)
2 - Taste of Vitae
3 - Amaranth.

In this sequence, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor" as ToV is played. In the linked ruling, this sequence is allowed. What I'm saying is that, once Disarm is played, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor". It should enter torpor, unless something is played (Amaranth, Undead Persistence, ..) But, in this very sequence, Taste of Vitae was squeezed in, making the "going to torpor" effect last, rather than have it applied immediately.

Pascal wrote:

"NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3]"

Thank you for this reference! I couldn't find this rascal. I was afraid this important rule had gone unwritten.

Again, this reference seems to invalidate the 2000 ruling, since here it says "is burned", and that ruling said "is being burned". Vampires can play cards while they are "being burned", such as Reform Body, thus participating in combat, thus indicating combat has not ended. (Yes, I prefer my dead horse well-beaten )

I do understand there's no press step once a minion is no longer ready, but I was saying that the line from the rulebook 6.4 you had referenced doesn't disallow the press step per se. A ruling was required, which you cited.

Pascal wrote:

I fully agree with this, but it's not what I meant / said.
What I meant / said was this:
1 - Disarm (or agg, or entombment, ..)
2 - Taste of Vitae
3 - Amaranth.

In this sequence, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor" as ToV is played. In the linked ruling, this sequence is allowed. What I'm saying is that, once Disarm is played, the opposing vampire is "going to torpor". It should enter torpor, unless something is played (Amaranth, Undead Persistence, ..) But, in this very sequence, Taste of Vitae was squeezed in, making the "going to torpor" effect last, rather than have it applied immediately.

Okay, I see what you meant. My issue was with "being burned" lasting across steps of combat, particualarly, a vampire burned during the strike step not going to the ash heap until the combat ends step. The sequence you're talking about seems completely correct, although I can see why a ruling was important for clarification. (However Entombment would not fit in this example since it can't be played during 'round ends'.)