Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

Azrael wrote:

I think if the Illusion commits Diablerie in Combat, Combat Ends cause the other Vampire is burned and ther´s no more Combat. I think too that Diablerie Effekts, like gain Blood or Equipment ist Part of the Diablerie so that happend before the Illusion is removed from Game. But i think the Bloodhunt Referendum comes after Combat, cause it´s Part of the Action, but not Part of the Combat.

Diablerie "effects" (such as taking blood / equipment off of the opposing vampire, fetching a Discipline skillcard, and the burning of the opposing vampire) are the diablerie.
If you burn the opposing vampire with Amaranth, you can play cards such as Hell-for-Leather or Predator's Transformation, Draught the Soul, ... [LSJ 20090201]

Okay, I'm still having troubles with this topic. I must really be missing something.

1. Why does an Illusionary crypt card that is burned in combat not get removed from play at the end of combat? Does it make a difference based on how the Illusion is burned, and if so, why?

2. Why would you get to choose the order of the Illusion being burned or removed from the game if the Illusion is Amaranthed? In other words, how is it that those two effects occur in the same timing window?

Aaron wrote:

Okay, I'm still having troubles with this topic. I must really be missing something.

1. Why does an Illusionary crypt card that is burned in combat not get removed from play at the end of combat? Does it make a difference based on how the Illusion is burned, and if so, why?

2. Why would you get to choose the order of the Illusion being burned or removed from the game if the Illusion is Amaranthed? In other words, how is it that those two effects occur in the same timing window?

I believe they are talking about the illusion amaranthing someone else and burning in the resulting blood hunt.

Oh, I know. It's the resulting discussion that has brought up these questions.

Aaron wrote:

Okay, I'm still having troubles with this topic. I must really be missing something.

1. Why does an Illusionary crypt card that is burned in combat not get removed from play at the end of combat? Does it make a difference based on how the Illusion is burned, and if so, why?

I'm not sure where this leads, but my current understanding is that there is a difference.
Due to existing cardtext mentioning "not being burned", here's what I think is:
- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap
- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.
So, in the first case, you gon't get a choice - you must burn the Illusion (if it's been Disarmed, Amaranthed, or burns from the blood hunt referendum). In the second case, you get to choose.

However, this needs a ruling, and this isn't one. I'm adding this to the Review list, to make a proper statement.

2. Why would you get to choose the order of the Illusion being burned or removed from the game if the Illusion is Amaranthed? In other words, how is it that those two effects occur in the same timing window?

You wouldn't. If the Illusion is Amaranthed, it burns and is put in the ash heap (I updated former replies in this thread).

Thanks for the reply. I still see some problems here. Normally I don't find any technical problems with rulings, but I think a lot of the old rulings concerning Illusions of the Kindred do not come close to following the current rules framework. I wasn't playing when most of them were made, and I suspect that the rules team had a different timing paradigm at the time.

I also wonder if the wordings of Illusions of the Kindred and Amaranth have changed.

Pascal wrote:

- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap

Why does being in the ash heap protect the Illusionary vampire from being removed from the game by IotK's text? The ash heap is "in play". IotK states "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat."

Am I missing some rule or ruling concerning how cards in the ash heap are treated? To me this ruling adds text to IotK: "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat unless it is in the ash heap."

Pascal wrote:

- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.

The rules as written don't seem to support the assertion that vampires burned by aggravated damage do not burn until the "combat ends" timing window of combat: Complete rules reference VI.C.2.c. & VII.B.1., Rulebook 6.4.6.

This ruling raises a host of timing questions. For instance, the "burning" vampire would be technically ready (it never goes to torpor) and would pass through the press step, end of round step, and end of combat step before being burned, being able to play cards at every step.

I'll be clear: I think that if a vampire burns during combat because of aggravated damage, it goes to the ash heap during the damage resolution step. Wouldn't the other way require a significant reworking of the rules?