Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

I'm trying to find a reference to whether Taste of Vitae can be played *before* Amaranth (that would be in an agg strike stiuation)

I'd say No to that (but can't find a ruling by LSJ saying either Yes or No).
So we're going to stick to the thing that has the "being burned" window closing if the bunring vampire doesn't play Reform Body or other stuff (Abandoning the Flesh, ...) - which would reverse my non-ruling open thought above (and seems consistent), and LSJ's ruling from some time ago.

Regarding the removal from the game part, I'll think about it, but so far, if the crypt card is in the ash heap when combat ends, it stays there [RTR 20001020]

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The reason the author gave for a burned Illusion to be able to be saved from removal from the game is wrong! There are no grounds for the text of IotK not to take effect if the Illusion is burned, regardless of timing.

Also, the author claims that "combat ends when the vampire is being burned".

Okay, now where is the rule that says that?

I understand that there is an unwritten rule that if a minion in combat is no longer ready, combat ends. (My little suggestion is that this rule belongs in the rulebook and rules reference )

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

I think it is: If a vampire is burned, combat ends.
He thinks it is: If a vampire is being burned, combat ends.

Two different things. Only one is right. As far as I can tell, we currently play it that combat ends AFTER the vampire is burned. The burn resolves -> combat ends. And when I say 'combat ends', I mean we skip ahead to Step E, 'Round ends', which is what happens when S:CE resolves (C.2.a.i. of the rules reference).

The author of the ruling also doesn't take into account the fact that 'round ends' effects (Step E) have to happen before 'combat ends' effects (Step F).

Illusions of the Kindred is actually very simple if one just follows what the card says and lets everything happen when it's supposed to happen! It's all about the six steps of combat, you know: A, B, C, D, E, & F

Please consider starting from scratch with Illusions of the Kindred!

Aaron wrote:

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The original Horrid Reality (DS) lacked that cardtext, that was added for FN. In the meantime, I guess a ruling was issued, that would read something like "The weapon isn't moved if it has been burned during combat." (found it: [TOM 19951212] )

Now, yes, the Final Nights version of IotK should've had its cardtext updated to match HR's update.
You can safely assume that IotK should read "remove from the game {{if it is still in play}}".


EDIT: Thanks Klaital Dunno how I got these two confused.

Umm you do realize that DS is older printing than FN?

Aaron wrote:

Also, the author claims that "combat ends when the vampire is being burned".

Okay, now where is the rule that says that?

I understand that there is an unwritten rule that if a minion in combat is no longer ready, combat ends. (My little suggestion is that this rule belongs in the rulebook and rules reference )

It's quite clearly written in the Rulebook:

6.4 Combat
[...] Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat [...]

So, if one of the minions ceases to be ready ("going to torpor", "in torpor", "being burned", "burned", "being removed from the game", "removed from the game" are those states that come to my mind right now), then combat ends.

"The combat ceased for want of combatants." Le Cid, Pierre de Corneille

Aaron wrote:

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

I think it is: If a vampire is burned, combat ends.
He thinks it is: If a vampire is being burned, combat ends.

Two different things. Only one is right. As far as I can tell, we currently play it that combat ends AFTER the vampire is burned. The burn resolves -> combat ends. And when I say 'combat ends', I mean we skip ahead to Step E, 'Round ends', which is what happens when S:CE resolves (C.2.a.i. of the rules reference).

Well, I'm trying to work on that one.

There's this: [LSJ 20031201] (question 4) that reads you can play Disarm, Taste of Vitae, Amaranth.
This means there's a window to play Taste of Vitae before Amaranth, which makes the lingering "going to torpor" effect last quite long.
I'm still wondering whether there should be only one opportutnity to play cards such as Undead Persistence / Amaranth (which would reverse this ruling above).

Pascal wrote:

It's quite clearly written in the Rulebook:

6.4 Combat
[...] Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat [...]

So, if one of the minions ceases to be ready ("going to torpor", "in torpor", "being burned", "burned", "being removed from the game", "removed from the game" are those states that come to my mind right now), then combat ends.

Aaron wrote:

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

Pascal wrote:

Well, I'm trying to work on that one.

There's this: [LSJ 20031201] (question 4) that reads you can play Disarm, Taste of Vitae, Amaranth.
This means there's a window to play Taste of Vitae before Amaranth, which makes the lingering "going to torpor" effect last quite long.
I'm still wondering whether there should be only one opportutnity to play cards such as Undead Persistence / Amaranth (which would reverse this ruling above).

The rule you cite doesn't really say what technically happens when a minion in combat is no longer ready. "combat ends" has a specific effect: go to step E. (Rules Reference VI.C.2.i). This rule does not literally say that you skip steps of combat if a minion is no longer ready. For instance, I would not interpret that rule to mean that if a vampire who played superior Drawing out the Beast was no longer ready after the Strikes step, that the other vampire could avoid the damage from DotB during the Press step. I guess it depends on what you think the word "participate" means.

The reason you can order Taste of Vitae and Amaranth in the same window is because ToV is played during Step E/Round ends and Amaranth can played any time in combat a vampire is going to torpor.

Step E. Round Ends
1. Taste of Vitae (played at the end of the round)
2. Disarm (played at the end of the round)
3. Amaranth (played whenever a vampire would go to torpor)

This doesn't imply a "lingering going to torpor" effect at all. It is played this way because of the timing framework provided by the Complete Rules Reference and the text of the cards in question. The ruling you reference is simply reiterating what is already in the rules.