Illusions of the Kindred + Amaranth

Aaron wrote:

Okay, I'm still having troubles with this topic. I must really be missing something.

1. Why does an Illusionary crypt card that is burned in combat not get removed from play at the end of combat? Does it make a difference based on how the Illusion is burned, and if so, why?

I'm not sure where this leads, but my current understanding is that there is a difference.
Due to existing cardtext mentioning "not being burned", here's what I think is:
- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap
- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.
So, in the first case, you gon't get a choice - you must burn the Illusion (if it's been Disarmed, Amaranthed, or burns from the blood hunt referendum). In the second case, you get to choose.

However, this needs a ruling, and this isn't one. I'm adding this to the Review list, to make a proper statement.

2. Why would you get to choose the order of the Illusion being burned or removed from the game if the Illusion is Amaranthed? In other words, how is it that those two effects occur in the same timing window?

You wouldn't. If the Illusion is Amaranthed, it burns and is put in the ash heap (I updated former replies in this thread).

Thanks for the reply. I still see some problems here. Normally I don't find any technical problems with rulings, but I think a lot of the old rulings concerning Illusions of the Kindred do not come close to following the current rules framework. I wasn't playing when most of them were made, and I suspect that the rules team had a different timing paradigm at the time.

I also wonder if the wordings of Illusions of the Kindred and Amaranth have changed.

Pascal wrote:

- if a card or effect reads "burn the opposing vampire", then they burn before the end of combat. Burning from a successful blood hunt referendum would also move the vampire to the ash heap

Why does being in the ash heap protect the Illusionary vampire from being removed from the game by IotK's text? The ash heap is "in play". IotK states "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat."

Am I missing some rule or ruling concerning how cards in the ash heap are treated? To me this ruling adds text to IotK: "Remove the crypt card from the game at the end of combat unless it is in the ash heap."

Pascal wrote:

- if it would burn for some other reason (agg damage, mainly), they're in that "being burned" state until combat ends, and burns there.

The rules as written don't seem to support the assertion that vampires burned by aggravated damage do not burn until the "combat ends" timing window of combat: Complete rules reference VI.C.2.c. & VII.B.1., Rulebook 6.4.6.

This ruling raises a host of timing questions. For instance, the "burning" vampire would be technically ready (it never goes to torpor) and would pass through the press step, end of round step, and end of combat step before being burned, being able to play cards at every step.

I'll be clear: I think that if a vampire burns during combat because of aggravated damage, it goes to the ash heap during the damage resolution step. Wouldn't the other way require a significant reworking of the rules?

I'm trying to find a reference to whether Taste of Vitae can be played *before* Amaranth (that would be in an agg strike stiuation)

I'd say No to that (but can't find a ruling by LSJ saying either Yes or No).
So we're going to stick to the thing that has the "being burned" window closing if the bunring vampire doesn't play Reform Body or other stuff (Abandoning the Flesh, ...) - which would reverse my non-ruling open thought above (and seems consistent), and LSJ's ruling from some time ago.

Regarding the removal from the game part, I'll think about it, but so far, if the crypt card is in the ash heap when combat ends, it stays there [RTR 20001020]

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The reason the author gave for a burned Illusion to be able to be saved from removal from the game is wrong! There are no grounds for the text of IotK not to take effect if the Illusion is burned, regardless of timing.

Also, the author claims that "combat ends when the vampire is being burned".

Okay, now where is the rule that says that?

I understand that there is an unwritten rule that if a minion in combat is no longer ready, combat ends. (My little suggestion is that this rule belongs in the rulebook and rules reference )

I argue that the author of this 2000 ruling got it WRONG. He says that "combat ends when the vampire is BEING burned". There is a difference between "is burned" and "is being burned".

I think it is: If a vampire is burned, combat ends.
He thinks it is: If a vampire is being burned, combat ends.

Two different things. Only one is right. As far as I can tell, we currently play it that combat ends AFTER the vampire is burned. The burn resolves -> combat ends. And when I say 'combat ends', I mean we skip ahead to Step E, 'Round ends', which is what happens when S:CE resolves (C.2.a.i. of the rules reference).

The author of the ruling also doesn't take into account the fact that 'round ends' effects (Step E) have to happen before 'combat ends' effects (Step F).

Illusions of the Kindred is actually very simple if one just follows what the card says and lets everything happen when it's supposed to happen! It's all about the six steps of combat, you know: A, B, C, D, E, & F

Please consider starting from scratch with Illusions of the Kindred!

Aaron wrote:

If you look at it again, I think you'll find the ruling you cite ([RTR 20001020]) is not solid.

A: The two effects (burn and remove from play) are occurring at the
same time (combat ends when the vampire is being burned), so the
acting Methuselah can order the events in any order she likes. If the
burn is done first, then the vampire will not be removed from play
(similar to the reason a Horrid Reality weapon won't be returned to
the library if it is burned first).

First of all, the analogy it draws with Horrid Reality is demonstrably incorrect. Check it out:

Horrid Reality [DS:U2, FN:PR]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined in combat.
[chi] Equip this minion with the first weapon you find in your library (working down from the top). Do not pay the cost for this weapon. Shuffle afterward. At the end of the combat, burn the weapon if it is still in play.
[CHI] As above, but return the equipment to your library at the end of combat if it is still in play. Shuffle afterward.

The reason a burned weapon is not returned to the library at is because of CARD TEXT. There is NO analogous card text on IotK, which removes a card from play at the end of combat. The author of the ruling based his rationale on the similarity between IotK and Horrid Reality, while they are demonstrably dissimilar.

The original Horrid Reality (DS) lacked that cardtext, that was added for FN. In the meantime, I guess a ruling was issued, that would read something like "The weapon isn't moved if it has been burned during combat." (found it: [TOM 19951212] )

Now, yes, the Final Nights version of IotK should've had its cardtext updated to match HR's update.
You can safely assume that IotK should read "remove from the game {{if it is still in play}}".


EDIT: Thanks Klaital Dunno how I got these two confused.

Umm you do realize that DS is older printing than FN?