file Change of control during the action

30 Apr 2015 07:51 #70780 by elotar
I'm having much casual fun with "thematic" FoS deck, but often face rules complications never met before.

So see SUBJ.

Examples (all, obviously, during minion phase of temptation controller(TC)):

1. temptation with one counter is on prince with 2 blood, who play second tradition to untap and block minion of TC with 1 stealth. Temptation counters are burned and control of prince now with 2 blood taken. Block fails?

2. In combat with minion of TC blocker plays card wich costs blood. Control changes again. What happens? Is there any difference if it was strike card(pushing the limit)?

3. In combat blocker lose blood after hand strike of TC minion. Is there any difference (to the TC minion) if he lose blood to steal blood effect (taste of vitae) and temptation is burned before damage prevention phase? First strike?

4. The same 1-3, but if the second minion belongs to the third player, who can act during other players turn (madness network, enkil cog). Nothing (in addition to change of control) happens?

:unsure:

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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30 Apr 2015 11:13 - 01 May 2015 07:19 #70782 by jamesatzephyr

1. temptation with one counter is on prince with 2 blood, who play second tradition to untap and block minion of TC with 1 stealth. Temptation counters are burned and control of prince now with 2 blood taken. Block fails?


Yes - the Prince is no longer an eligible blocker.

[LSJ 20080326]

> Methuselah A declares a bleed. Methuselah B declares a block with
> minion b. Methuselah A plays stealth. Methuselah B plays matching
> intercept with minion b. Can Methuselah A use temptation to take
> control of minion b and thus continue with the action even though
> blockers had been declared?

Yes.


2. In combat with minion of TC blocker plays card wich costs blood. Control changes again. What happens? Is there any difference if it was strike card(pushing the limit)?


Combat ends - if you ever end up controlling both combatants for any reason, end combat.

If damage has actually been inflicted but you're - for example - activating Temptation during the damage prevention window (when you might be playing Skin of Rock or tapping The Barrens, or whatever), then that damage must be cleared up before combat ends. But combat ends. If you haven't actually inflicted the damage, that's not relevant - so it being a strike card that caused the blood to drop is only relevant if you've actually got as far as resolving the strike. You could activate Temptation during Choose Strike, still, in the same timing window as you might play a claw or ammo card, if you preferred.

vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z

When stealing a vampire in combat, any damage yet to resolve will still resolve before the change of control. [LSJ 20020618]


[LSJ 20020617]

> > Can the use of temptation interrupt an action, or say in
> > the middle of combat??
>
> yes. it's possible, you just burn the counters and end combat.

Correct.

3. In combat blocker lose blood after hand strike of TC minion. Is there any difference (to the TC minion) if he lose blood to steal blood effect (taste of vitae) and temptation is burned before damage prevention phase? First strike?


Starting with first strike... Assuming you deal enough damage with First Strike to allow you to activate Temptation, you could do so before normal strikes resolved, ending combat. Assuming your opponent is only hitting you with a normal strike, that would mean you didn't resolve his strike. This is similar to the situation of what happens if you send a minion to torpor with first strike - combat don't last until normal strike resolution, so you ignore their normal strike.

Steal blood. Assuming you hit your opponent with a steal blood effect during normal strike resolution and he hits back with a hand strike, again during normal strike resolution. Due to the way that combat works, the effect of the steal blood strike is applied (removing counters) slightly before you burn counters for the damage - the resolution of a steal blood strike is to move the counter, but the effect of a damage dealing strike is to apply the damage done, moving you into a damage handling window. There, you can play damage prevention cards and other such shenanigans, in order to limit the damage done. Only after that do you burn counters for the damage (healing/burning blood to prevent destruction etc.). So it looks like you could sneak in between the movement of the counters for steal blood and the burning of counters for damage - except that's what the 2002 ruling above prevents. If you've applied the damage but not yet finished resolving it, you have to finish resolving it.

4. The same 1-3, but if the second minion belongs to the third player, who can act during other players turn (madness network, enkil cog). Nothing (in addition to change of control) happens?


Assuming you mean (I think): it's player A's turn. Player C's vampire is acting using Madness Network, and doing something that involves Player B's vampire (B is blocking, B is in combat or whatever). A then takes control of B's vampire.

The answer will be: it depends.

For a block attempt, it depends whether Methuselah A is an eligible blocker (E.g. you're down to three players, and this was an undirected action). If he isn't, the block fails as above. If he is, then it's more interesting, and I'm not sure if I've seen the question come up before, so Pascal may want to chime in. Assume A is the prey of C, and has already passed on his right to block. Then B (C's predator) unexpectedly announces a block. Does A continue the block attempt, even though he's passed on his right to block? It's mostly less interesting if you reverse it - having someone later in the order of block attempts steal the vampier - because they could just re-announce the block attempt when it gets to their go to block, except that the initial block attempt might have been facilitated by a one-off effect - such as on a 5 player table, a cross-table 'ally' blocks with Eagle Sight (which provides a one-off 'break the rules' effect these days - its card text changed some years back from its earlier persistent effect), and the other cross-table 'ally' activates Temptation, so does the block attemtp continue or not? Hmm. In a tournament without a better answer, I'd be tempted to rule that the attempt continued uninterrupted, but I don't know.

In combat, it's fine - so long as the two minions are controlled by different people, the world doesn't end.

One thing it's worth mentioning. The acting minion takes an action that requires the target to be tapped (e.g. Mind Numb), or requires it to be controlled by a specific Methuselah(s) (e.g. Loss). Changing control of the target is permissible generally. However, if activating Temptation breaks these conditions - by untapping the vampire, or making the vampire be controlled by a Methuselah that wasn't on the allowed list - then the action will fizzle.

[LSJ 20020527] (with a third little glitch on the end - the Bum's Rush example possibly doesn't work how you'd expect either).

> #1. (Classic). Vampire A attempts to play Mind Numb on untapped Vampire B. If
> Vampire B becomes tapped sometime before the action resolves (Vampire B taps to
> use Starshell Grenade Launcher, or Vampire B blocks but Vampire A continues the
> action with Form of Mist), then the Mind Numb action will fizzle since Vampire
> B is no longer untapped, right (and thus not a legal target)?

Correct. You cannot "put this card on any untapped vampire" on a tapped vampire.

> #2. A. (Cornercase). Methusaleh Z has finished with his minion phase actions.
> Methusaleh Y (cross-table from Z) uses the Madness Network to perform an action
> directed at Y's predator, Methualeh X, (i.e. Slaughtering the Herd at superior,
> Roxanne's rush, etc.). If Methusaleh Z uses Temptation to gain control of the
> targeted vamp, then the action fails, right? Since that vampire is no longer a
> valid target (controlled by predator/prey).

Correct.

> #2. B. Like #2.A. except the action Methusaleh Y is taking is not limited to
> predator/prey (i.e. a Bum's Rush). All Methusalehs decline to block. If
> Methusaleh Z uses Temptation to gain control of the targeted vamp, then a new
> blocking opportunity is created since the target changed (just like with
> Deflection). Right?

The target has not changed. The BR is still targeting Vamp V.
No new blocking opportunity results.

Last edit: 01 May 2015 07:19 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Borrelstein

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30 Apr 2015 11:31 #70783 by elotar
Eer, thanks. It happen to be even more complicated than I thought. :huh:

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

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30 Apr 2015 17:00 - 30 Apr 2015 17:01 #70788 by Whisker
Ok, one more:
What happens, if I take control of the acting (Enkil Cog / Madness network) minion mid-action? Action fizzles?
Last edit: 30 Apr 2015 17:01 by Whisker.

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30 Apr 2015 18:36 #70791 by jamesatzephyr

Ok, one more:
What happens, if I take control of the acting (Enkil Cog / Madness network) minion mid-action? Action fizzles?


www.vekn.net/general-rulings

If the Methuselah loses control of the acting minion before the resolution of the action, then the action ends. [RTR 19970630]


Fizzling is what happens if you get to resolution (without being blocked) and something has screwed up somewhere along the line e.g. target becomes ineligible, can't pay the entire cost, no longer has equipment that was needed for the action. So the action just ends, rather than fizzles.

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01 May 2015 06:39 #70794 by Borrelstein
Thanks for the explanations!
I never realized temptation can be activated during actions, but it makes sense.

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