Sleeping mind vs wakes

Hey guys,

We had an argument over some cards and we were looking for some wisdom. I looked for answers on the forum but did not find anything. Sorry if it is the case.

A. Sleeping mind vs wake with evening freshness

Sleeping Mind
Only usable when the action is announced.
(dom) Choose a tapped vampire. He or she cannot attempt to block this action.
(DOM) Minions cannot untap during this action.

Wake with evening freshness
Do not replace until your next untap phase.
Only usable by a tapped vampire. This reacting vampire can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded.

Is there a difference between "being untapped" (that minions cannot do at superior DOM with sleeping mind) and "as though untapped" which technically is not untapped? In other words, can I use WwEF vs Sleeping Mind at superior?

Yes, you can still play "As though untapped" cards as the minion doesn't actually untap.

Cards like Second Tradition, Eluding the Arms of Morpheus or Black Sunrise can not be played as they state "This vampire untaps" and actually untap the vampire.

I believe Sleeping Mind would also prevent vampires playing Majesty at superior.

Yes,

And cards like Freak Drive ( at any level ) and Cat's Guidance ( at inferior ) also can not be played.

Cannot be played at all, or can be played to no effect?

you can still use Wake against sleeping mind at superior, as Wake doesn't actually untap the minion.

Zoroh wrote:

Cannot be played at all, or can be played to no effect?

Cards that untap a vampire cannot be played at all.
This includes (but is not limited to):
- superior Majesty (but you can play basic Majesty)
- Freak Drive (inf and sup)
- Second Tradition (to untap -- you can still play it with a tapped Prince who played WwEF earlier)
- Cats' Guidance (sup)
- Sense the Savage Way (sup)
- Meld wth the Land (at basic)
- Angel of Berlin (to untap -- you can still play it to equip the imbued)
- Read the Winds (at superior)

Things that can be played / used:
- Wake with Evening's Freshness (and other cards that read "as though/as if untapped")
- Read the Winds (at inferior)
- Second Tradition (with an untapped Prince, or with a Prince who played WwEF, to only gain intercept)
- No Secrets from the Magaji
- Tapping 3 Aye (and burning a blood) with Aye's cardtext
- Blocking a younger vampire with Durga Syn

However, sometimes, a mandatory untap is written:
- When bleeding with Flurry of Action sup + Sleeping Mind, the vampire won't untap.

Zoroh wrote:

Cannot be played at all, or can be played to no effect?

For cards that actually untap you, you can't play them (for that effect) because "minions cannot untap during this action".

If you've already played a card that would untap you later, but you played it prior to the Sleeping Mind being played, the untap effect will fizzle.

Thank you for your valuable insights.

Is it me or playing Sleeping Mind can be at your own disadvantage and is not worth the blood cost?

I was looking for a way to "block" wakes/forced awakening/on the qui vive, and I thought that Sleeping Mind was the answer I was looking for.

P.S. I am curious, Pascal... do you know that by heart? If not, what kind of tools do you use to get that knowledge?

This list of cards was written from thé top of my head. It is not complete, but I know it "by heart" (from practice).

Prudent_Audacity wrote:

Is it me or playing Sleeping Mind can be at your own disadvantage and is not worth the blood cost?

Well, it could be. If you're playing a deck with a whole bunch of Freak Drives or hoping to use superior Majesty a lot, you probably won't want to play superior Sleeping Mind a lot. Having a few in the deck might still be worthwhile as an option, though - in part, the inferior is quite good, and you might find you want to play it at superior anyway, for some reason.

But not all decks play untap like that much at all - weenie dom/DOM is unlikely to be untapping much, for example. Or a Tremere deck might include Rutor's Hand, and the untap from Rutor's Hand doesn't need to untap you during the action, so you could do both.

Prudent_Audacity wrote:

I was looking for a way to "block" wakes/forced awakening/on the qui vive, and I thought that Sleeping Mind was the answer I was looking for.

If you're looking to stop a player using a Wake in order to block you, inferior Sleeping Mind is still quite good - whether he wakes or untaps, he can't block you. Together with Seduction, you can potentially take out two would-be blockers. Toss in a Misdirection and/or an Anarch Troublemaker into a deck and you can make life quite uncomfortable for would-be blockers.

Of course, if the reason you want to stop the Wake is to stop a vampire playing bleed bounce (e.g. Deflection) then neither Sleeping Mind or Seduction will help you with that. You might find a few Approximation of Loyalty to be an interesting way of addressing that - certainly not the best card ever, but potentially interesting in small quantities.