file "Before range is determined"

13 Oct 2016 21:04 #78687 by BogusMagus
I know my preference is not relevant,
but playing "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" in the damage prevention step
feels......very weird to me.

If it was up to me,
I would change it to;
All damage inflicted during "Before range is determined" step will be applied at the end of the step.
(Damage will be dealt even if the step ended due to "combat ends" effect.)
When damage are applied, damage prevention or other effects can be used,
BUT cards that are "Only usable before range is determined." CANNOT be used at this timing.

I think this would solve all the mess.

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14 Oct 2016 13:36 #78690 by jamesatzephyr

BogusMagus wrote: I know my preference is not relevant,
but playing "Outside the Hourglass (Sup)" in the damage prevention step
feels......very weird to me.

If it was up to me,
I would change it to;
All damage inflicted during "Before range is determined" step will be applied at the end of the step.
(Damage will be dealt even if the step ended due to "combat ends" effect.)
When damage are applied, damage prevention or other effects can be used,
BUT cards that are "Only usable before range is determined." CANNOT be used at this timing.

I think this would solve all the mess.


It solves one mess, but adds another - a patchwork of inconsistent rulings.

Why is damage applied in the pre-range step bundled up and dealt later, but not in other steps, or other areas of the game?

Why are 'before range is determined' cards not usable during the damage prevention step from Outside the Hourglass, but other effects are (e.g. tapping The Barrens)? We're before range is determined, but literally banning the play of cards that say they can be played then - but still allowing other plays that don't say "before range is determined". e.g. the terrible, terrible but useful-for-weirdass-rulings card, Nosferatu Putrescence: despite being utterly, farcically terrible, it (unusually for a combat card) has no explicit or implicit timing restriction on it, other than being a combat card.

In this instance, my preference is probably either for:
- the two damage dealing effects end being being 'merged', and handled simultaneously, or
- the play is prevented by fiat generally: no damage dealing effects during damage prevention.

Although in the second case, I'm starting to get mild concerns about how that would marry with a card like Target Vitals or Twisting the Knife.

(Who am I kidding, no copy of Twisting the Knife has ever been played ever. If this is found to be untrue, reality is at fault.)

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14 Oct 2016 14:07 - 14 Oct 2016 14:32 #78691 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Before range is determined"

jamesatzephyr wrote: In this instance, my preference is probably either for:
- the two damage dealing effects end being being 'merged', and handled simultaneously, or
- the play is prevented by fiat generally: no damage dealing effects during damage prevention.

I don't like the second proposition because it doesn't cover other cases such as Illusions of the Kindred. Or Alpha Glint.
A weird example would be Gabrin (who pays 1 less Chimestry cards) with 2 blood and an Anathema against whom is played an Outside the Hourglass.
During the prevention step, he plays Illusions of the Kindred for 1 blood. Do we handle the damage? If so, it means that the IoK combat is postponed until the damage step is over. But an Aura Reading would be resolved immediately, so new rules would be necessary to handle that case.

The cards we need to consider are :
  • Barrens: an effect usable anytime
  • Mariel, Lady Thunder: a vampire effect only usable before range is determined that ends combat and inflicts damage
  • Outside the Hourglass: a combat card only usable before range is determined, inflicts damage
  • Aura Reading: a combat card only usable before range is determined, does something unrelated to damage
  • Skin of Rock: a combat card usable anytime (when there's damage to prevent)
  • Flesh of Marble: a combat card only usable before range is determined, that has to do with damage
  • Skin of Night (at inferior): a combat card usable anytime, that has to do with damage
  • Alpha Glint (at superior): a combat card only usable before range is determined, ends combat

Then we can consider the multiple options:
- forbid non-prevention cards/effects from being played during the prevention step. This forbids everything but Skin of Rock. Flesh of Marble isn't a prevention card per se, and Skin of Night doesn't prevent damage
- forbid combat cards and effects that have a non-prevention window timing from being played ("only usable before range is determined" for instance). This allows Barrens, Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, but not Flesh of Marble
- forbid cards that have nothing to damage prevention. This allows Skin of Rock, Skin of Night, Flesh of Marble, but not Barrens (this requires also adding a trait to those allowed cards)

Skin of Rock should obviously be allowed.

I think there's a strong consensus about Skin of Night being usable.

I think there's a mild consensus about Flesh of Marble being usable.

I think there's a strong consensus about Barrens being usable, even if it opens Lady Mariel's ability for use.

I think there's a weak consensus about Aura Reading being usable (because it opens the possibility of played another Outside the Hourglass, or Illusions of the Kindred).

Everything is opened to discussion.

About Outside the Hourglass vs Alpha Glint, the current ruling is:

> > If the vampire targeted by OtH plays Alpha Glint before resolving
> > damage does he still have to. Is not combat over?
>
> IANLSJ, but it seems to me that damage must be resolved (one way or
> another) for combat to end.
Correct.

Rulings:
Weather Control:
# Weather Control's damage will occur even if combat is subsequently
ended before range (by Mariel or Elysium: Arboretum, e.g.) [LSJ
19971110]


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 14 Oct 2016 14:32 by Ankha.

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24 Oct 2016 21:16 #78766 by beslin igor
As I see it's a very interesting topic has not yet been completed. Can it be told to reply a judge who judges at tournaments of this game?
Should be read the last Ankha answer and answer what is acceptable from everything written.
Playing VTES I never really occurred this situation, but it is possible to happen

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02 Feb 2017 20:23 - 02 Feb 2017 20:26 #80484 by Serazahr
A suggestion on wording an earlier idea:

"Damage is not dealt before range is determined. Any damage that is attempted to be dealt before range is determined, is dealt in the same order it was played in during range determination."

That would mean that minions can front load a lot of card effects, with damage only being dealt afterwards, but with the impulse being respected. In this version Illusion of Kindred and Alpha Glint could dodge damage. (Which I personally am fine with)

Edit: And given that Lady Thunder only deals her damage after combat ends, nothing would change there.

Edit2: I hope this is not a necro, I came from the Newsletter.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2017 20:26 by Serazahr.

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03 Feb 2017 00:21 #80487 by self biased

Weather Control

Only usable before range is determined on the first round.
:tha: Both combatants and each of their retainers take 1 unpreventable damage before range is determined each round. A vampire may play only one Weather Control each combat.
:THA: As above, but the amount of damage inflicted increases by 1 in each subsequent round.


to further muddy the waters, Weather control is way less straightforward than Outside the Hourglass, as it says "Before range is determined" in its text as well as its 'restriction text'

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