Tangle Atropos' Hand vs. failed block attempts (an impulse and timing question)

Is there a ruling on whether Tangle Atropos' Hand can be played after, for example, a minion has attempted and failed to block because the action has stealth and the would be blocker does not have intercept?

This is most relevant in the case of bounced stealth bleeds:
Vampire A bleeds for 3 at 1 stealth and is bounced to their grand-prey, who then attempts and fails to block having no intercept. No cards are played. Impulse then returns to the controller of Vampire A, can they Tangle to cancel and untap?
My understanding is that by the time the Impulse goes back to the acting minion, the would-be block attempt has already failed and therefore does not qualify for the present continuous tense "is attempting to block" required to play Tangle.

Tangle Atropos' Hand
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[Temporis] Temporis
[Potence] Potence
[1 Blood]

Only usable when a minion is attempting to block.
[pot] Cancel the action and untap the acting minion. (The blocking minion is not tapped.)
[tem] As [pot] above, and take the action card, if any, back into your hand (discard afterward).
[TEM] As [tem] above, and this vampire gets +1 stealth on his or her next action this turn.


I will highlight the relevant sections of the rulebook in bold with my commentary in brackets [ ]:


6.2.2. Resolve Any Block Attempts

1. Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready untapped minions to attempt to block the action (going clockwise from the acting Methuselah, as usual). If the action is not directed at another Methuselah (or at something controlled by another Methuselah), then the action is called undirected and can be blocked by the acting Methuselah's prey or predator, with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. If one attempt to block fails, another can be made as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes. Once a Methuselah decides not to make any further attempts to block, that decision is final. As a convenience, when a card describes an action that is typically directed at another Methuselah, the card's text will usually include a symbol as a reminder that the action is typically directed. Remember, political actions are always undirected.

Note that moving past the block attempts (when all Methuselahs have declined to block) is an effect and so allows the acting Methuselah (and others) to play more cards and effects."
[Commentary/Interpretation: This is the most important statement, in my opinion]

Krid's action to bleed Alexis is directed at Alexis, so only Alexis's ready untapped minions can attempt to block. If one block attempt fails, another can be made.

Pug's action to recruit the Loyal Street Gang is not directed at another Methuselah, so it is undirected. It can be blocked by the ready untapped minions of Sarah's prey or Sarah's predator. If her prey's first attempt fails, another can be made and so on until her prey declines to make any further attempts, at which point her predator may begin attempting to block.

2. Stealth and Intercept. Conceptually, stealth represents the measures that the acting minion is taking to conduct his business discreetly, to avoid attracting the attention of those who would oppose him. Intercept represents the blocking minion's efforts to discover the plans of the acting minion and to stalk or chase him in order to detain him (by fighting with him) before he can accomplish his goal.

To see if a block attempt succeeds, compare the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept. The action is blocked if the blocker's intercept is equal to or greater than the acting minion's stealth. By default, minions have 0 stealth and 0 intercept. So a block attempt will normally succeed unless the action has inherent stealth (such as hunting) or a card or effect is used to increase the acting minion's stealth.

Some actions have an inherent stealth, as noted in the action list (sec. 6.1) and on some action cards. The minion taking such an action starts with greater stealth than normal. Additionally, some cards and other effects can be used to increase a minion's stealth or intercept, as noted on card text.

Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). Likewise, intercept can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only by a blocking minion when the acting minion's stealth exceeds his intercept).

Note that all modifications made to a minion's stealth or intercept remain in effect for the duration of the action. Increased stealth and intercept return to normal after the action is resolved.

Sarah announces that Ira is hunting and taps Ira. The action is undirected and has a default of +1 stealth. Her prey declines to block. Her predator, however, plays a reaction card to give +1 intercept to one of her ready untapped minions, Eugenio. Sarah has no cards to play to increase Ira's stealth, so the action is blocked. Eugenio is tapped, and combat begins.

If a block fails (the acting minion's stealth exceeds the blocker's intercept and the blocker's Methuselah cannot add or does not wish to add more intercept), either another attempt is made (with the same or a different minion) or the defending Methuselah declares that she will not make any further attempts to block the action. Note that this declaration is an effect and so allows the acting Methuselah (and others) to play more cards and effects.

[Commentary/Interpretation: Impulse stays with blocker until an actual block attempt is made with proper intercept -- although Impulse also moves in response to any card or effect being played, until a block attempt is made it stays with the defending Methusaleh -- once that is done a block attempt or failing to block is a result returned to the acting Methuselah who may then respond e.g. by playing Tangle (or stealth or another effect) in response to the block attempt or by resolving the action in the case of No Block Attempt]


Sarah announces that Quentin is bleeding Alexis. Sarah has no effects that she wishes to play before Alexis decides whether to block, so Sarah says "Do you block?" Alexis decides not to block, so then Sarah plays Confusion (an action modifier that adds 1 to the bleed). Alexis is bled for 2 pool.

I can see this being ruled both ways and I am fine with that, but I believe my interpretation is cleaner. If there's already a ruling that would be helpful. I looked but did not find it. Otherwise, I respectfully request one. Also, I can elaborate more on both sides of the case if that would be helpful.

Thanks!

Before others have to, I also want to point out that the timing text is different from effects like Valerius Maior (advanced/merged)

Blessing of Chaos
[Action] Action
[Dementation] Cementation
[1 Blood]
+1 stealth action.
[ dem ] Put this card on the acting vampire. If this vampire attempts to block, the acting vampire cannot play action modifiers requiring Dementation [dem] , Chimerstry [chi] , Dominate [dom] or Presence [ pre ]. Vampires opposing this vampire in combat cannot play cards that require those Disciplines.
[ DEM ] As above, and actions requiring those Disciplines cannot be directed at this vampire.

[Adv] Valerius Maior, Hell's Fool (see non-Advanced)
[nec][ pre ][AUS][DAI][DOM][THA]
[Tremere antitribu] Tremere antitribu
Capacity: 7
Group: 4

Advanced, Sabbat. Red List: If Valerius attempts to block, the acting minion cannot play action modifier or combat cards that require Chimerstry [chi] or Obfuscate [obf] . Infernal.
[MERGED] Independent: Valerius becomes non-infernal and non-Red List as he merges. While merged, his capacity is reduced by 2.

When a minion with the Blessing of Chaos or Valerius (advanced) has attempted a block, the relevant restriction applies to the remainder of the action.

They don't need to generate intercept to attempt (and fail) to block a stealth action in order to put that restriction into effect.

Relevantly though, my understanding is that impulse returns to the acting minion in the same way -- the defending methuselah either has made a block attempt (with the minimum required intercept) or has attempted and failed to block -- for both results Blessing of Chaos and Valerius' special are triggered, but only in the active block attempt case would Tangle be playable.


p.s. when quoting cards and vamps be aware that [ pre ] without adding spaces inside the brackets will turn into the 'pre-formatted text markup' and will look funny

One much simpler way to say this (perhaps too simple):

Timing of Tangle Atropos' Hand -- you can play it when you would or could play stealth, but instead of playing stealth you play Tangle to cancel the action and untap.

The only condition is:

"Only usable when a minion is attempting to block."

So a minion without enough intercept can still attempt to block (and fail). You do not need to have enough intercept to make the attempt. So at the point they attempt you play Tangle.

I am quite sure, that for a "block attempt" you only have to be ready, untapped (or tapped and "awaken") and "willing to do so", but you do not have to have any points of intercept.

I have not found a specific ruling by now, but only "hints":
vtesone.wordpress.com/2007/11/03/coping-with-bleed-bounce/
www.jyhad.pw/2006/Mar/07/51957.html

Lead wrote:

Is there a ruling on whether Tangle Atropos' Hand can be played after, for example, a minion has attempted and failed to block because the action has stealth and the would be blocker does not have intercept?

This is most relevant in the case of bounced stealth bleeds:
Vampire A bleeds for 3 at 1 stealth and is bounced to their grand-prey, who then attempts and fails to block having no intercept. No cards are played. Impulse then returns to the controller of Vampire A, can they Tangle to cancel and untap?
My understanding is that by the time the Impulse goes back to the acting minion, the would-be block attempt has already failed and therefore does not qualify for the present continuous tense "is attempting to block" required to play Tangle.

You're conflating several steps. A would-be blocker doesn't attempt to block and immediately fail.

When you announce a block, that is treated in the same way as a card play or use of an effect for the purposes of the sequencing rule. The impulse returns to the acting Methuselah. The acting Methuselah then gets the opportunity to use effects, which might include - for example - just outright cancelling your block attempt with Elder Impersonation. Often, the acting Methuselah won't have an effect to use. Or they can't play stealth because, for example, their equip action was already at an inherent +1 stealth and you need to wait for the blocking minion to generate some intercept - though of course the blocking minion might have Mr Winthrop.

The game neither knows nor cares, at this point, that your would-be blocker is going to go on to generate no intercept at all, or has no way of generating sufficient intercept, or is cycling a card to announce the block hoping to draw into some but maybe not doing so.

Once the acting Methuselah passes the impulse back to the would-be blocker, the blocker can generate some intercept, or whatever else, or do nothing.

Once the block has actually been declared failed, however, there is no block attempt.



[LSJ 20020613]

LSJ wrote:

> I assume his saying "I attempt to block" is an event which allows the
> acting Methuselah to play another card or effect. Is it?
>
> I further assume that the acting Methuselah must pass again after that
> before he can add intercept, correct?

Sure.