file Ballot vs Fee Stake

08 Mar 2018 06:50 - 08 Mar 2018 06:51 #85628 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Ballot vs Fee Stake

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote:

beslin igor wrote: Gratiano

So in refendum Free States Rant,all prisci have 0 ballots and Gratiano have 1,that automaticli count controler Gratiano gets prisci sub referendum-him have 3 votes,right?

Correct.


The Priscus sub-referendum has all the ballots cast in it, and then the winning side has 3 votes cast for or against the referendum. But that block of 3 votes isn't cast by any individual Priscus - which would be potentially non-sensical on a table with two or more Priscus anyway.

This doesn't make much difference, but would be relevant e.g. to Tribunal Judgment, and one or two other corner-case effects.

I parsed beslin igor's text as: "the controller of Gratiano gets the prisci sub-referendum to vote for him".
Anyway, it's clearer indeed to rephrase as you did: Gratiano's ballot determines how the prisci block will vote in the main referendum (and those votes are not cast by Gratiano).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 08 Mar 2018 06:51 by Ankha.

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10 Nov 2020 22:38 - 10 Nov 2020 22:49 #101091 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Ballot vs Fee Stake

Ankha wrote:

beslin igor wrote: How works ballots vs efect 1 fewer votes?

Q1) Fee Stake: Perth

Cardtype: Action
Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4. +1 stealth action. Title.
Put this card on the acting anarch to represent the unique anarch title of Baron of Perth. This may lead to a contested title. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action. In that referendum, non-anarch titles are worth 1 fewer votes.

So,when any vampire call referendum to burn this card,how that afect ballots and prisci sub referendum?

Not affected, they don't get -1 ballot.

It seems odd that the Fee Stakes were never updated when the Prisci vote became a ballot. The cards were printed in 2003 (and never updated since), but ballots were introduced in 2011. It seems counterintuitive that the -1 vote-like thing in a referendum sometimes affects Prisci and sometimes not. These cards should all use the same templating.

EDIT: LSJ's original ruling was because there was no text on Fee Stakes that specifically pointed out the Prisci votes, but the FSR text was parenthetical on the original printing. The original ruling was an error, IMO.
Last edit: 10 Nov 2020 22:49 by kschaefer.
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11 Nov 2020 07:57 #101097 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Ballot vs Fee Stake
Current card text:

Free States Rant
Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire.

Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point allocated. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 less vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth 1 additional vote.


I think it's clear now, is it not ?

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11 Nov 2020 17:43 #101100 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Ballot vs Fee Stake

lip wrote: Current card text:

Free States Rant
Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire.

Allocate X points among one or more ready vampires, where X is half the capacity of the acting vampire (rounded up). No more than 3 points points can be allocated to each vampire. Successful referendum means each vampire burns 1 blood for each point allocated. In this referendum, non-priscus titles are worth 1 less vote each, priscus title is worth 1 less ballot, and burning the Edge is worth 1 additional vote.


I think it's clear now, is it not ?

You're missing the point. I am talking about history. Original versions of cards, bad rulings, and the botched migration to ballots because of that.

The original text of FSR included a reference to Prisci in a parenthetical. The original text (only text) for Fee Stakes did not. LSJ's ruling about Fee Stakes not affecting Prisci is because the parenthetical is missing. While we know that WW era cards used the parenthetical poorly, it seems odd that such a ruling was made. Parenthetical text being, well, parenthetical.

We're now living with two similar, but different templates: one affecting ballots and one not.
The principle of least surprise suggests that this is bad design. I see no reason that LSJ's original ruling couldn't be overturned now.

If the rules team doesn't want to undo LSJ's marginally bad call, BCP also has the chance to align the templating for the upcoming Anarch set. One hopes that Fee Stakes will finally see a reprint there.
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13 Nov 2020 07:50 #101104 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Ballot vs Fee Stake
Oh right, I get it know - I was missing the point. If I understand correctly you’re arguing fee stake cards should affect ballots ? The way it works for free states rant ? That makes more sense.

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