file Retainers inflicting damage =/= Environmental?

03 Jun 2018 11:04 - 03 Jun 2018 11:09 #87870 by Kraus
The Lost kindred cards introduced Environmental damage, but Vengeful Spirit "inflicts" damage as a retainer, not Environmental.

Name: Vengeful Spirit
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Harbinger of Skulls
Cost: 1 blood
Wraith with 2 life.
The employer gets +1 bleed. Vengeful Spirit inflicts 1 damage on the opposing minion each round of combat during normal strike resolution at close range.
Artist: Ginés Quiñonero


Wolf Companion has the following text:

Name: Wolf Companion
[Jyhad:U2, VTES:U, Sabbat:U, SW:PT, KMW:PG, Third:PTz2]
Cardtype: Retainer
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Animalism
Animal with 2 life.
[ani] When the minion with this retainer is in combat, the opposing minion takes 1 damage during strike resolution (if the range is close).
[ANI] As above, but Wolf Companion has 3 life.
Artist: Zina Saunders; Melissa Benson

Emphasis mine.

What is the source of damage on Wolf Companion? Is it Wolf Companion (inflicts) or Environmental?

I'm trying to figure out what are the niche scenarios where Environmental and retainer damage have different interactions. Neither are inflicted by the opposing minion (Disarm, Pulled Fangs), and there are as of yet no cards that would, for example, prevent damage from Environmental only.

Where does the wording matter, and why isn't Vengeful Spirit Environmental damage?

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Last edit: 03 Jun 2018 11:09 by Kraus.

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03 Jun 2018 13:47 #87871 by jamesatzephyr

Kraus wrote: What is the source of damage on Wolf Companion? Is it Wolf Companion (inflicts) or Environmental?


Anything not from a minion is environmental.

www.vekn.net/general-rulings
Damage is only considered to have come from a minion if the damage is from a strike or if an effect specifically states that the damage is dealt by the minion. Damage from other effects is considered "environmental," and has no particular source. [RTR 19970630]

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03 Jun 2018 16:35 - 03 Jun 2018 16:36 #87873 by Kraus
Shouldnt the cards use that template then? The retainers could just as well all say "environmental damage". Just to make it idiot proof. Ya?

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Last edit: 03 Jun 2018 16:36 by Kraus.

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03 Jun 2018 18:04 - 03 Jun 2018 18:07 #87874 by Ankha

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Kraus wrote: What is the source of damage on Wolf Companion? Is it Wolf Companion (inflicts) or Environmental?


Anything not from a minion is environmental.

www.vekn.net/general-rulings
Damage is only considered to have come from a minion if the damage is from a strike or if an effect specifically states that the damage is dealt by the minion. Damage from other effects is considered "environmental," and has no particular source. [RTR 19970630]

This has changed (implicitely through card text). The damage inflicted by Vengeful Spirit is inflicted by the retainer: this means that a vampire who is immune to damage dealt by wraiths, or retainers, would take no damage from the Vengeful Spirit. (Wolf Companion will be changed accordingly).
Damage from minions hasn't changed.
Environmental damage is now reserved to effects that have no specific source (Carrion Crows).

I've edited the General Ruling section.

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Last edit: 03 Jun 2018 18:07 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kraus, ruiza97, Sambomb, Bloodartist

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04 Jun 2018 16:43 #87908 by jamesatzephyr

Ankha wrote: This has changed (implicitely through card text).


Except, the same card text existed at the time the ruling was made. See Murder of Crows, V:TES edition: vtes.pl/card/Vampire-the-Eternal-Struggle/Murder-of-Crows/39363



You are, of course, entitled to make any ruling you want. If the justification is based on changes introduced by card text, though, it would help if that were true, rather than not true.

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04 Jun 2018 18:12 #87911 by thelonius reloaded
Just to be sure:

Nephandi will reduce the damage coming from the minion.
Damage inflicted by retainer is not from the minion thus no reducing.
Damage from other sources (carrion crows) is environmental thus no reducing.

Is that right?

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