Discussion: Card costs and presentation
10 Dec 2018 09:50 - 10 Dec 2018 09:56 #92327
by Ankha
@LivesByProxy: VTES does not define a "keyword" because it is not necessary to the rules.It does not mean that terms that could be coined as "keywords" (or "technical term" etc.) do not exist.
To answer the original topic,
- Rant has no card cost (nothing is written in the lower left corner of the card)
- It has an effect that allows you to burn 1 blood to get +1 vote. The cost of the effect is 1 blood, but it is not the cost of the card.
Some cardless actions or actions granted by cards in play have a cost explicitely written, such as "X can do Y as a +1 stealth action that costs ..."
Replied by Ankha on topic Rant! + Salvador Garcia
Correct.
Except as Ankha recently told me, VTES does not have keywords.
It has a variety of terms like "electronic", "gun" etc. on library cards, and some similar terms on some vampires cards such as "Black Hand" and "Seraph", which are clearly not costs, and have no rule-based or card-text-based effect on the game, in the way that other defined terms do, such as "bleed" or "Prince".
However you want to distinguish between those two groups, it has both of them.
@LivesByProxy: VTES does not define a "keyword" because it is not necessary to the rules.It does not mean that terms that could be coined as "keywords" (or "technical term" etc.) do not exist.
To answer the original topic,
- Rant has no card cost (nothing is written in the lower left corner of the card)
- It has an effect that allows you to burn 1 blood to get +1 vote. The cost of the effect is 1 blood, but it is not the cost of the card.
Some cardless actions or actions granted by cards in play have a cost explicitely written, such as "X can do Y as a +1 stealth action that costs ..."
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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10 Dec 2018 12:27 - 10 Dec 2018 12:32 #92330
by Ankha
For instance, "can", "have", etc. are verbs, but do we need to explicitely say so? No.
You can call them keywords if you want to; but you are then on a metalevel, not on the rule level.
Now, the card has no cost. Its effect (A) is to create another "lingering" effect (B) for each ready anarch, which is "burn 1 blood to get +1 vote".
That effect B has a cost (which is not the same as the card cost) which is "burning 1 blood". A ready anarch can't use this effect if they don't pay the cost.
To help understanding that point, let's consider an alternative (B') effect: "Each ready anarch can gain +1 vote and burn 1 blood.". This effect has no cost.
Replied by Ankha on topic Rant! + Salvador Garcia
I don't see how adding that those terms are keywords would help since we don't need to refer to them.
@LivesByProxy: VTES does not define a "keyword" because it is not necessary to the rules.It does not mean that terms that could be coined as "keywords" (or "technical term" etc.) do not exist.
Terms under "special terms" in the rulebook are for all intents and purposes, keywords.
Keyword is a word with a set of rules attached to it in the rulebook. As in, rules text on a card can be replaced with corresponding keyword, and it still works. This is done to keep card texts concise.
Hunt is a keyword (for example +1 hunt), wake is a keyword, infernal is a keyword, etc. VTES sometimes tries to purposefully avoid using certain terminology which tends to lead to more confusion rather than clear things up.
For instance, "can", "have", etc. are verbs, but do we need to explicitely say so? No.
You can call them keywords if you want to; but you are then on a metalevel, not on the rule level.
It's not what James said. James was talking about the cost of a card, "Cards cost him..." means that Salavador reduces the cost of the card.OT: I agree with James' original ruling. (This is in line with how magic the gathering handles costs too, btw). The term "cost" refers to the cost to play a card. You have to pay the cost in order to play the card. The cost to play Rant! is zero.
That you can burn blood to gain votes is the cards effect. Its not a cost.
Now, the card has no cost. Its effect (A) is to create another "lingering" effect (B) for each ready anarch, which is "burn 1 blood to get +1 vote".
That effect B has a cost (which is not the same as the card cost) which is "burning 1 blood". A ready anarch can't use this effect if they don't pay the cost.
To help understanding that point, let's consider an alternative (B') effect: "Each ready anarch can gain +1 vote and burn 1 blood.". This effect has no cost.
Correct until now.Followup:
Dragos (does not pay blood costs of combat cards he plays) is in combat. Opponent plays terror frenzy at superior (combat cards cost opposing vampire extra 1 blood). Dragos plays chiropteran marauder, does not pay the extra since its a cost. Does have to pay 1 blood in order to make his hands aggravated
This is inaccurate. It is a card effect that has a cost. You are comparing oranges (effects) and apples (costs).since that is the cards effect rather than a cost.
Prince of Paris, France
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