Discussion: Card costs and presentation

Or Jenna Cross.

Jenna Cross


Capacity: 4
Group: 4
Independent anarch: Cards that cost blood cost Jenna 1 additional blood to play. Sterile.

Jenna doesn't pay extra for Rant! because it is not a part of the cost?

jblacey wrote:

So generally, most card mechanics are either cost or effect.

False. Some parts of card mechanics are, for example, requirements that must be met. Other parts of cards are keywords.

Effects can also include further elements that have their own costs, requirements, or effects, such as burn clauses or things for other Methuselahs to trigger off (e.g. Business Pressure).

jblacey wrote:

We have a ruling on costs from LSJ. He said if the cost of a card is negated then the effect is negated.

When Black Cat reduces Saturday Night Special's cost to zero, it still goes in play.

When Dragos plays any combat card for free, it still has an effect.

jblacey wrote:

So burn a blood for a vote is part of the effect, similarly Dragos' text only applies to costs, not effects.

Dragos's text only applies to the cost of combat cards. Any costs that aren't the cost of the combat cards are irrelevant to his special, however those costs might be generated.

jblacey wrote:

By that reasoning,

Your reasoning is misconceived.

jblacey wrote:

If a card prevents a vampire from burning blood for a cost, it would not effect the superior text of Chiropteran Marauder or Rant!

Is that correct?

If you don't burn a blood for Chiropteran Marauder superior, you don't get aggravated hand damage. If you don't burn blood for Rant, you don't get votes.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

False. Some parts of card mechanics are, for example, requirements that must be met. Other parts of cards are keywords.

Ok, so you are saying requirements are not a part of the cost or the effect.

Interesting.
Do you have reference from where you are getting this from?
Specifically, where I can find a definition for "cost"?

Cost referenced hundreds of times in the rulebook and it is loosely defined based on the context of the topic. Some times it refers to blood, pool, conviction, etc. I definitely didn't see it in the term section, which is where I expected to see it.

Effects can also include further elements that have their own costs, requirements, or effects, such as burn clauses or things for other Methuselahs to trigger off (e.g. Business Pressure).

Okay, so embedded costs exist.

When Black Cat reduces Saturday Night Special's cost to zero, it still goes in play.

When Dragos plays any combat card for free, it still has an effect.

I was referring to this:

If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful. [RTR 20011007]

You cannot play a card whose cost cannot be paid. If, between the time a action card is played (or an action is attempted) and the time the cost of the action is paid, you no longer can pay the cost, then you pay as much as you can and the card is burned without effect (or the action has no effect). [TOM 19960514] [RTR 20010710]

Also in the rule book is this statement.

Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can play it.

A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount of blood or pool that must be burned to play the card. A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the amount of pool the Methuselah must burn).

Dragos's text only applies to the cost of combat cards. Any costs that aren't the cost of the combat cards are irrelevant to his special, however those costs might be generated.

Jenna Cross' ability says "Cards that cost blood cost Jenna 1 additional blood to play".

You are suggesting that "burn x blood to do y" is not a cost, such as in Chiropteran Marauder. So Jenna does not need to pay extra for the anarch effect of Rant! or any card that says "burn x blood to do y", since that isn't a cost, correct?

Your reasoning is misconceived.

Maybe. Your statements give me reason to believe you didn't understand what I was asking.

If you don't burn a blood for Chiropteran Marauder superior, you don't get aggravated hand damage. If you don't burn blood for Rant, you don't get votes.

Again, you missed my point. "burn x blood to do y" is fine.

Jenna Cross, plays KRC. The action isn't blocked and goes to referendum. Jenna Cross plays Rant!. How much blood does she pay?

If ["burn x bood" != cost]
then
echo "x=1, Jenna Cross pays 1 blood for Rant!"
else
echo "x=2, Jenna Cross pays 2 blood for Rant!"
fi

jblacey wrote:

Jenna Cross, plays KRC. The action isn't blocked and goes to referendum. Jenna Cross plays Rant!. How much blood does she pay?

If ["burn x bood" != cost]
then
echo "x=1, Jenna Cross pays 1 blood for Rant!"
else
echo "x=2, Jenna Cross pays 2 blood for Rant!"
fi

Jenna pays zero blood to play Rant! because it is not a CARD that costs blood. Once Rant! is successfully played, during the referendum, she may burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote.

Playing a card from your hand is not the same thing as taking advantage of ongoing effects. Rant! grants a temporary ability to Anarchs, allowing them to burn blood to gain a vote.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Other parts of cards are keywords.

Except as Ankha recently told me, VTES does not have keywords.

jblacey wrote:

Ok, so you are saying requirements are not a part of the cost or the effect.

The rulebook distinguishes between a variety of things, such as:

- the blood cost or pool cost
- the clan or discipline required to play the card
- attributes of the card

See, for example, 1.6.1.

jblacey wrote:

I was referring to this:

If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful. [RTR 20011007]

Costs have to be met, yes. That is different from you claiming that if "the cost of a card is negated" the effect is negated, which is a wildly different thing.

jblacey wrote:

Also in the rule book is this statement.

Requirements for Playing Cards. Each library card has symbols on the attribute bar (the marble stripe on the left side) for the card type (except for master cards), the clan or Discipline (if any) required to play the card and the cost (if any) of playing that card. Some cards will have other requirements (such as capacity or title) stated in the card text. Only a minion who meets the requirements given on a minion card can play it, while only a Methuselah who controls a ready minion who meets the requirements of a master card can play it.

A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount of blood or pool that must be burned to play the card. A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the amount of pool the Methuselah must burn).

Oh look, it's the section of the rulebook that explains the difference between requirements and costs!

jblacey wrote:

Jenna Cross' ability says "Cards that cost blood cost Jenna 1 additional blood to play".

You are suggesting that "burn x blood to do y" is not a cost,

No, I'm suggesting that Chiropteran Marauder's effect is not a cost of the card. The very first words of Jenna Cross's ability limit what it applies to - cards that cost blood. Chiropteran Marauder is not a card that costs blood.

jblacey wrote:

Jenna Cross, plays KRC. The action isn't blocked and goes to referendum. Jenna Cross plays Rant!. How much blood does she pay?

Rant costs zero blood. So it isn't a card that costs blood. So it's not affected by her text.

Once played, it then allows all anarch vampires to burn blood for its lingering effect. But that isn't the cost of the card.