file Canceling cards and bold text

03 Jan 2019 13:34 - 03 Jan 2019 13:36 #92630 by Bloodartist

LivesByProxy wrote: Is it possible we will ever see a card that cancels a "card effect", rather than just cancels a card?


We already have one. Delaying tactics cancels the referendum of a political action, not the card itself.

Ankha wrote: It depends what the other ammo card says (since the first ammo card has no effect).
For instance:

Name: Dragon's Breath Rounds
Cardtype: Combat
Ammo.
Only usable before resolution of a gun's strike. This gun inflicts +2 aggravated damage each strike for the remainder of this combat. Burn the gun after strike resolution. No more than one ammo card can be used on a gun each combat.

(Emphasis mine). Since the first ammo was not used (which is different from "played"), you can play a Dragon's Breath Round after another ammo card has been cancelled.


Contradictory VTES rules part 12312231:
Card text of a canceled card doesn't have effect, EXCEPT if its restrictive ("only one immortal grapple can be played per round")

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Last edit: 03 Jan 2019 13:36 by Bloodartist.

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03 Jan 2019 17:28 - 03 Jan 2019 17:29 #92633 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Canceling cards and bold text

Bloodartist wrote: Contradictory VTES rules part 12312231:
Card text of a canceled card doesn't have effect, EXCEPT if its restrictive ("only one immortal grapple can be played per round")


Wrong !

Actually, this is no exception.

The card text of a cancelled card "as it is played" as NO effect.

For Immortal Grapple or Giant's Blood, it is the card text of the second one which is NOT cancelled who make it an illegal play. It reads "A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round." and so if you would play a second IG, it would be the second one (the first as been cancelled "as it is PLAYED" and so have been PLAYED).

And there is no contradiction, you can't play a card which is illegal per card text.
Last edit: 03 Jan 2019 17:29 by Timo.

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03 Jan 2019 17:56 #92634 by jamesatzephyr

Kraus wrote:

(Emphasis mine). Since the first ammo was not used (which is different from "played"), you can play a Dragon's Breath Round after another ammo card has been cancelled.

So it is still true that a played card that is cancelled, that has a text 'only one player per X', cannot be replayed in the instance, even if the whole text box of the card is cancelled and ignored once cancelled by DI or whatever?


The game knows that you played a card with that card name and what the card type was (e.g. action modifier, combat). But the card text beyond that is blank.

What happens next depends on the card text of the card you're playing/using.

1) If the card says something like "You cannot play another...", such as on most bleed modifiers before the change to the "(limited)" card text, then that card text on the first card doesn't apply. When you come to play another one of that card, or that class of card, nothing is stopping you from playing it from card text. But if the cancelled card was an action modifier (or reaction), the game remembers that you played one and stops you from playing the same one. But you always could, for example, play Conditioning, have it cancelled, and then play Threats instead - the card text on the earlier Conditioning is blank, so it didn't stop you playing Threats.

2) If the card says something along the lines of "Only one X can be played per Y" (e.g. Carrion Crows: "A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat."). Then the game remembers that you played a Carrion Crows, even though it was cancelled - and then when you try to play another copy of it, the card text from the second Carrion Crows kicks in and stops itself being played. See also: once per game referendums. "Only one Ancient Influence can be played in a game." The card text of a second Ancient Influence will see the earlier, cancelled Ancient Influence was played, and so stop itself being played.
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03 Jan 2019 18:02 - 03 Jan 2019 18:36 #92635 by jamesatzephyr

Ankha wrote: Yes. If a card is cancelled, all its cardtext is cancelled (including bold parts).

...

(Emphasis mine). Since the first ammo was not used (which is different from "played"), you can play a Dragon's Breath Round after another ammo card has been cancelled.


I'm not sure why you're drawing this distinction - it doesn't seem necessary. The word "ammo" on the earlier ammo card was cancelled. When DBR is being played, its card text looks for other ammo cards that have been played and/or used - and there aren't any, because the word "ammo" was cancelled.

If the game is going to remember some of the card text on cards but not other text, that seems likely to cause problems.
Last edit: 03 Jan 2019 18:36 by jamesatzephyr.
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04 Jan 2019 10:25 #92639 by Lönkka

LivesByProxy wrote: Is it possible we will ever see a card that cancels a "card effect", rather than just cancels a card?

For example, Super Direct Intervention which "cancels a minion card effect?" the difference being the minion who played it is still locked if it was an action, cost is still payed, if strike card, they technically played a strike and don't get another, etc.


Right off the bat without pondering, cancelling card effects might actually be more clear and easy to understand way to take care of cancelling.

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04 Jan 2019 10:39 #92640 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Canceling cards and bold text

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote: Yes. If a card is cancelled, all its cardtext is cancelled (including bold parts).

...

(Emphasis mine). Since the first ammo was not used (which is different from "played"), you can play a Dragon's Breath Round after another ammo card has been cancelled.


I'm not sure why you're drawing this distinction - it doesn't seem necessary. The word "ammo" on the earlier ammo card was cancelled. When DBR is being played, its card text looks for other ammo cards that have been played and/or used - and there aren't any, because the word "ammo" was cancelled.

If the game is going to remember some of the card text on cards but not other text, that seems likely to cause problems.


The game remembers everything that occurred previously. Cancelling an effect doesn't mean that history about it is erased, it just means it has no effect.

If you play an aim card that is cancelled, you still can't play another one because it was indeed an aim card (even if it was cancelled).

Name: Target Vitals
Cardtype: Combat
Aim. Only usable when choosing a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card as it is played.

The game remembers that a card named Target Vitals, which has the "aim" label, that is played when choosing a strike, that has a given effect, etc. was played.

If a card says "Not usable if another card usable when choosing a strike was played this combat.", it would remember that Target Vitals who meets that criteria was played (with no effect).

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