file Additional Strikes and "Cancel as Played"

26 Nov 2019 16:16 #97986 by Kushiel
We had a situation come up in play last night and there was some confusion about how to resolve it.

In combat, Vampire A plays Pursuit to gain an additional strike. Vampire B plays Death Seeker to cancel Pursuit as it's played. Can Vampire A play another card to gain an additional strike?

We decided that the "limited" keyword meant that vampire A couldn't play another card. However, checking this morning to see if I could find a ruling on this, I found a line in the V:TES Official Clarifications, Rulings, and Errata doc on the VEKN France site indicating that they could play another card to gain additional strikes...but that document appears to be from 2004, well before the "limited" keyword was introduced to the game.

Name: Pursuit
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Maneuver.
[CEL] Additional strike {(limited)}.

Name: Death Seeker
Cardtype: Combat
Clan: Salubri antitribu
Cost: 1 blood
A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each round.
Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is played, and its cost is not paid.

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26 Nov 2019 17:58 - 26 Nov 2019 18:01 #97987 by Kraus
Cancelling a card effectively results a card by that specific name being played with a 'blank' effect. In Action modifiers :modifier: this is important since a minion may not play multiple :modifier: or :reaction: cards of the same name during the same action. That does not apply to combat :combat: cards however.

In this case a 'blank' Pursuit was played with no effect. The minion did not gain any Additional Strikes, thus they could play another to actually gain the benefits of the cards.

This is why a minion might not replay a cancelled Conditioning, but might attempt to increase the Bleed amount with Threats (the bleed amount was not factually increased).

How _Limited_ works was last discussed in the October Newsletter:
www.vekn.net/2-uncategorised/465-vampire-elder-kindred-network-newsletter-october-2019

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-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 26 Nov 2019 18:01 by Kraus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kushiel

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26 Nov 2019 20:14 #97990 by Kushiel
Yeah, that makes sense.

In retrospect, I suspect we were probably confused around cards which specifically state that there can only be one copy played per round (like Immortal Grapple), which still pertains when they're cancelled due to the text on the second copy...

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27 Nov 2019 16:50 #98003 by Bloodartist

Kraus wrote: Cancelling a card effectively results a card by that specific name being played with a 'blank' effect. In Action modifiers :modifier: this is important since a minion may not play multiple :modifier: or :reaction: cards of the same name during the same action. That does not apply to combat :combat: cards however.


There are some important exceptions however, namely the combat cards that restrict themselves. For example you can only play one immortal grapple per round. Canceling a grapple means opponent cannot play another that round and you can combat end or whatever in peace.

(offtopic)
Also another important rule is that action cards have to reach resolution in order to count as "played" and trigger the no-repeat-actions rule. Ie. resolve either successfully or unsuccessfully (succesful block means the action resolved unsuccessfully) This means that if you cancel an action card, they can play same action card again and attempt that same action again, no matter what it was. Action cards are unique in this sense.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones

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28 Nov 2019 10:23 #98015 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote:

Kraus wrote: Cancelling a card effectively results a card by that specific name being played with a 'blank' effect. In Action modifiers :modifier: this is important since a minion may not play multiple :modifier: or :reaction: cards of the same name during the same action. That does not apply to combat :combat: cards however.


There are some important exceptions however, namely the combat cards that restrict themselves. For example you can only play one immortal grapple per round. Canceling a grapple means opponent cannot play another that round and you can combat end or whatever in peace.

Indeed, and that's because of the cardtext of the second copy, not the one that was cancelled.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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28 Nov 2019 12:23 #98020 by Tendoncutter

Bloodartist wrote:

Kraus wrote: (offtopic)
Also another important rule is that action cards have to reach resolution in order to count as "played" and trigger the no-repeat-actions rule. Ie. resolve either successfully or unsuccessfully (succesful block means the action resolved unsuccessfully) This means that if you cancel an action card, they can play same action card again and attempt that same action again, no matter what it was. Action cards are unique in this sense.


Which kinda sucks if you try to stay alive against bleed decks through, among other things, Superior Esprit de Corps -_-

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