Erciyes Fragments - Ashur Tablets

Hi, I play my third Ashur Tablet and when I choose the card wich I move to my hand my predator uses his Erciyes Fragments to pick that card.

Is that possible? If it is, wich is the explanation ?



Name: The Erciyes Fragments
[Promo-20040301]
Cardtype: Master
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Lock this card to move a library card from your prey's ash heap to this card, face down. You may look at that card at any time. You may play the card from the Fragments as if playing it from your hand (requirements and cost, if any, apply as normal). When that card is burned, remove it from the game instead. Only 1 card can be on this card at a time. Any vampire with a capacity above 4 can steal the Fragments (and any card on it) for his or her controller as a action.


Name: Ashur Tablets
[KoT:C, Anthology:3]
Cardtype: Master
Put this card in play. If you control three copies, remove all copies in play (even controlled by other Methuselahs) from the game to gain 3 pool and choose up to thirteen library cards from your ash heap; move one of the chosen cards to your hand and shuffle the others in your library.

3rd Ashur Tablets is played, targets are announced. Can I use the Ercyies on one of them?
No (ruling)

[Source: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/72819-ec-list-of-calls-to-the-judge#72870]

Now we need to find the ruling.

Wouldn't thing work the same way as, say, using Heidelberg during the action?

Heidelberg Castle, Germany:
* Heidelberg Castle may not be tapped "in response" to any instant effect (because all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain combat effects). [LSJ]
* May not be tapped "during" paying some cost - must be tapped before or after. [SFC 19960830]

Millicent wrote:

Hi, I play my third Ashur Tablet and when I choose the card wich I move to my hand my predator uses his Erciyes Fragments to pick that card.

Is that possible? If it is, wich is the explanation ?

To use an effect like locking an Erciyes Fragment, you need to have the opportunity to play a card or effect, following the sequencing rules. Having that opportunity is commonly known as having the "impulse".

For cards that aren't action cards or strike cards (both of which have delayed resolution), when you play the card, you resolve the card. V:TES doesn't create a stack of effects that then resolve backwards like '90s-era Magic. Play the card, resolve the card.

During my master phase, I have the impulse first, so I play Ashur Tablet. I announce what cards are going to be retrieved. There is then the cancellation window, where you could play Sudden Reversal etc., but you can't tap Erciyes Fragment during that window because the cancellation window is restricted to cards that are played "as a card is played" and Wakes (by the rulebook). The card isn't cancelled, so it resolves. At this stage, I have nothing else I want to play, so I pass the impulse. Other players may now use cards and effects if they want to. Knowing that I've just played Ashur Tablet and got some cards back, for example, you might decide that you want to tap Heidelberg Castle and move some stuff around, because if I go into my minion phase, I have the 'impulse' to take an action.

You could alternatively tap Erciyes Fragment during my unlock phase (after I've passed the impulse), if you suspected I was going to play Ashur Tablet.



Along similar lines, we're in combat, second round. I'm acting, so I have the impulse first in each phase. Before range, I play Fists of Death - the pertinent fact about which is that it is played before range and costs blood. It is played, isn't cancelled, and resolves. There isn't a moment where you can sneak in and say "But I play Blood to Water, causing you to burn blood, meaning you can't pay for the Fists of Death you've just played."

Play the card/effect, resolve the card/effect, then move on to the next thing.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

During my master phase, I have the impulse first, so I play Ashur Tablet. I announce what cards are going to be retrieved. There is then the cancellation window, where you could play Sudden Reversal etc.,

Sorry to swoop in from the left, but no, unless this has changed. Ash heap cards are not declared when Ashurs are played as the effect that grants pool and deals with cards happens from the table, not from the master card being played. The Declared effect that can be suddened (or washed or reverse timed) is "put into play." They do not know what cards you're planning to cycle and respond accordingly with cancels. But otherwise the lack of window to tap Fragments is correct, after all it does not specifically use the wording "as played" or similar indicating it can resolve before the effect from played card can resolve. It follows the normal impulse rules.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/ZKuCyTayYbc/5nMjLpX4DuMJ

LSJ wrote:

LSJ
10/30/09
Kevin M. wrote:
> LSJ,
>
> 1. Must you announce the 1+12 (or whatever) cards *as you play* the
> third Ashur Tablets, or after the as-played window is closed,
> e.g. when the effect happens?

Neither. The "when 3 are in play" effect is an effect of the card in play, not
of the card being played.

Announce play
Resolve as-played (Sudden Reversal, &c.)
Resolve play (The effect happens: "Put this card in play")

Then the card is in play, making three, so:

Handle the 3-in-play effect.