file Timing question: Mask of a Thousand Faces VS block resolution

09 Sep 2020 06:10 - 09 Sep 2020 06:14 #100716 by Tadori

Timo wrote:

Actual card text of aching beauty :

Name: Aching Beauty
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, KoT:U, FB:PTo3]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Toreador
Cost: 2 pool
Put this card on any Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the blocking minion's controller burns 1 pool before block resolution.

Actually, it states that the pool is paid when the toreador is blocked so each aching beauty on each blocked toreador would trigger.

(I may be wrong but LSj answer seems pretty straightforward and the difference in situation seems moot regarding cardtext...


The doubt I have is the time of triggering this ability. Is AB triggering the moment minion action is successfully blocked or is it enough to be in blocked state.

If its the first case, only 1 AB will trigger becouse vampire from mask was not blocked he only participating in already blocked action. If it's the second situation both AB trigger

As I said in my opinion vamp with AB should actually be blocked by opponents minion and this state occurs when you agree that your action was blocked. You play mask after that, switched vamp was not blocked technically, he entered already blocked action by previous vamp so he missed the trigger.
Last edit: 09 Sep 2020 06:14 by Tadori.

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09 Sep 2020 06:49 #100717 by Bloodartist

Rémi wrote: Dear all,

I am the acting player, I say "Yes the current action is blocked".
1/ Can I play Mask of a Thousand Faces after that? Of course i would play if at inferior level since I would not be able to further increase the stealth amount.

2/ Only if the answer of the first question is YES.
If both the initial acting minion and the one who has just played the Mask of the 1000 faces has Arching Beauty. May I activate both of them?


Name: Mask of a Thousand Faces
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] Only usable by a ready, unlocked vampire other than the acting minion who is capable of performing the action. Not usable if any action modifiers or other effects have been used that could not have been used if this vampire were the acting vampire. Unlock the acting minion and lock this vampire instead. The action continues with this vampire as the acting minion.
[OBF] As above, with +1 stealth.


Name: Aching Beauty
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Toreador
Cost: 2 pool
Put this card on any Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the blocking minion's controller burns 1 pool before block resolution.



As far as I can see, the act of blocking happens only once. Aching beauty talks about being blocked. Mask can be playable at basically any time since it doesn't have limitations.

So either
1.) Vampire A is blocked and triggers aching beauty, you play mask, vampire B is already blocked and doesn't trigger its aching beauty and handles following combat.

2. Opponent is only attempting to block vampire A, you play mask, vampire B is now the one who the opponent is attempting to block, you let it happen, Beauty triggers, and combat follows.

Due to mask having a lenient timing, you can choose which vampire triggers the aching beauty, but it can't be both.

This answers the question 4 also: you could keep swapping the vampires if you want, but only one triggers aching beauty. This is not in contradiction to LSJ's ruling, since no mention is given about vampire A having aching beauty. What he said still holds true.

3/ Only if the answer of the first question is YES.
May I play Venenation after the Mask of the 1000 faces?

Name: Venenation
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Serpentis
Only usable when this acting minion is blocked, before combat begins.
[ser] Place a corruption counter on the blocking minion. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that ally, you may burn all of your corruption counters on that minion to gain control of him or her (combat is canceled). Otherwise, combat occurs as normal.
[SER] As above, but the cost of this card is reduced by 1 blood.


Venenation has similar trigger as aching beauty, so it is handled similarly. With Mask you can choose which vampire triggers it, but only one trigger will happen.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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09 Sep 2020 07:29 - 09 Sep 2020 08:20 #100719 by Timo

Bloodartist wrote:
Venenation has similar trigger as aching beauty, so it is handled similarly. With Mask you can choose which vampire triggers it, but only one trigger will happen.


And it has been explicitly ruled that you can play multiple venenations using different vampires with multiple mask.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/sWEvlqb1FS8/m/trxhYQ3lR20J

IMO it means that you could trigger multiple copies of aching beauty on a block.

EDITH : I was wrong ^^
Last edit: 09 Sep 2020 08:20 by Timo. Reason: Correction

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09 Sep 2020 07:43 - 09 Sep 2020 08:00 #100720 by lip
Sorry for posting too fast on point 2.

A quick search in the google group let us know that you cannot mask if you have used Aching Beauty, because you used an effect that the masking vampire could not have used (even if he had an Aching Beauty, it's not the same).

[LSJ 20030520]

> 2/ Can B Mask the action after the block and the pool loss induced by the
> Aching Beauty? Is the pool loss considered an applied effect?

B cannot mask once the pool loss effect is applied.


So, to summarise:

1/ Can I play Mask of a Thousand Faces after that? Of course i would play if at inferior level since I would not be able to further increase the stealth amount.

Yes [LSJ 20010803]

2/ If both the initial acting minion and the one who has just played the Mask of the 1000 faces has Arching Beauty. May I activate both of them?

No. You cannot play Mask if you activate the first. [LSJ 20030520]

3/ May I play Venenation after the Mask of the 1000 faces?

Yes [LSJ 20010803]

4/ May I play another Mask of a Thousand Faces?

Yes [ANK 20200515]
Last edit: 09 Sep 2020 08:00 by lip.
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09 Sep 2020 08:19 #100721 by Timo

lip wrote: Sorry for posting too fast on point 2.

A quick search in the google group let us know that you cannot mask if you have used Aching Beauty, because you used an effect that the masking vampire could not have used (even if he had an Aching Beauty, it's not the same).


Of course you're right...

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10 Sep 2020 07:32 #100732 by Ankha

Tadori wrote:

lip wrote:
2. From previous ruling and [LSJ 20090106] , I'd conclude (but this may need an RD confirmation) than, yes, you can trigger both Aching Beauty.
r.


I think situation in LSJ is different, in the answer minion is still attempting to block,
Remi stated that action is successfully blocked and after that, mask is played.

@Ankha can you take a look.


You cannot play M1KF after the Aching Beauty has triggered.

lip wrote: 1. From [LSJ 20010803] , I'd say yes, you can "be blocked" and play Mask.

2. From previous ruling and [LSJ 20090106] , I'd conclude (but this may need an RD confirmation) than, yes, you can trigger both Aching Beauty.
After further research, you cannot play Mask if you used the effect of Aching Beauty [LSJ 20030520]

The link is correct.

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